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Old August 19 2013, 04:10 PM   #21
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Location: The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
Well, if there was a door big enough for the Enterprise-D, we can always pretend there was one big enough for the Excelsior, too.
Funny, when I visited the Paramount Studios back in 1988 Andrew Probert confronted me with the E-D / spacedock scaling issue and asked "Can you believe this [crap]?"
Fascinating. Now that visit sounds worthy of its own thread too.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
My reply was the same as yours and courteous as he is he politely replied "Maybe I can live with that". I took a look at his E-D schematic in front of Earth Spacedock and feel today that we definitely need a bigger Spacedock to make this work.
Well, maybe we can pretend Starbase 47 was actually bigger, and either the Enterprise was smaller than she appeared when sliding through the doors ahead of Excelsior, or that there was an unseen larger door. I do intend to more thoroughly study the TSFS scenes to glean what I can. But overall, I'm not super concerned with whether or not it fits in Spacedock, since Spacedock's exact size isn't locked down. Scaled against the Enterprises and other concrete sizes, I think i might do.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
You might want to get in touch with Andrew Probert. Back then I also brought up Shane Johnson and this was Mr. Probert's reaction: "Oh, Shane "
It's been a while, but I think I shall drop Mr. Probert a line, especially given that comment. I knew of course of the dubious canonical status of Mr. Johnson's work, though there were of course elements I admired.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Looks to me like the guys at ILM solely focused how to make the spacedoors match the size of the Enterprise for entry and exit - and forgot to make it big enough for the Excelsior, too (maybe there was a bigger one elsewhere for Excelsior but she merely blasted the small space door wider Enemy Mine style to pursue Enterprise? )
Haha, it is rather convenient we don't see the Excelsior exit, isn't it?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Is there a possibility ILM deliberately "fixed" their mistake in the size comparison chart?
In other words, they realized they made her too big, and scaled her down? I suppose that's possible.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
And what does a scale comparison of Excelsior's bridge, saucer rim and saucer ventral array with those features on the Enterprise suggest?
I will try to work up such a comparison this evening unless someone beats me to it. I can tell you the bridge is not at all identical, with a simple silver 'cap' in TSFS, and the Excelsior's being narrower in TUC.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Regarding Excelsior's engineering hull windows I'd rather find these unreliable to use these as a means to conclude the actual size from.

Apparently these could be the infamous "lower decks" (lower deck ).
You would think so, but they seem to line up too well. And, scaling from the saucer rim isn't too terribly far off from what I get in engineering - if anything, the saucer points to narrower decks and therefore more of 'em.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
And though I detest the bunk bed BS featured in ST VI, I wouldn't exclude the possibility these might be tall rooms / decks.
Not a fan of the bunks either. I believe there was a deck level sign outside Tuvok's quarters, I want to say it said deck seven. I'll need to hunt screencaps to be sure.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I can't work out the deck heights now, but here's a slightly butchered version of Johnson's cutaway, which I used in the Enterprise size thread over in XI+
Thank you sir, that's most helpful!

Maurice wrote: View Post
I know Bill George personally. I can ask him about the intended size next time I see him.
You lucky so-and-so. Moreso, we lucky so-and-sos. If you find occasion to ask him about it, I would be elated.

Maurice wrote: View Post
As I recall, Bill was tasked to build study models for the Excelsior from concepts by others, and when he finished early he was allowed to make his own concept model for consideration. That's the one Nimoy picked.
Fascinating - I remember the study model bit but not the later part. Truly he is the Father of the Excelsior then.

Maurice wrote: View Post
That's a great theory about the doors, but it's undermined by the fact that we see the Excelsior pointed at the door the Enterprise enters and exits through.
Damn. Is it just me, or even allowing for perspective doesn't it seem like Excelsior is just going to be too wide?

Tomalak wrote: View Post
I'm pretty sure he did build the Excelsior. Doesn't he talk about it on the DVD?
I'm pretty sure he did, indeed. Everything I've ever read about the original creation of the ship involves Mr. George.


I hunted down a few relevant script tidbits, from here.

introducing NX 2000, Excelsior, a super starship. Her lines are similar to Enterprise, but she is clearly bigger, sleeker, and very new. She sits at her mooring like the new Queen of Space.
36 INT. SPACEDOCK - THE CAFETERIA (FX SHOT WITH ILM 36 ELEMENTS) THROUGH THE WINDOW of a Spacedock facility, a few lounging Starfleet persons look up to see a memorable sight... ... battle-scarred Enterprise is passing alongside of the sleek Excelsior. Their size differential is apparent (B-29 to B-17). Yet, Enterprise carries with her a battle-scarred history of achievement. Some of the Starfleet people begin to rise, silently. A standing ovation for a hero's return.
So there's a spot of authorial intent - Excelsior is bigger, along the lines of B-29 to Enterprise's B-17. This may be a more useful statement than we realize. Not only was the B-29 considerably larger, but it was considered fairly revolutionary for its time. Interestingly, the B-29 remained in service for a while after the war, but the B-17 was scrapped almost immediately after, as it was considered obsolete. Hrmmm...

Might be worth doing a size difference percentage.

I don't think this one is meant to represent size difference as much as set the scene, but it is amusing nonetheless:

112 INT. SPACEDOCK - THE CAFETERIA - (FX SHOT WITH ILM 112 ELEMENTS) It's darkened now, and empty. A lone cleaning man works among the stacked tables as behind him, in the great window, Enterprise begins backing away from Excelsior like a mouse tip-toeing away from a sleeping cat. The cleaning man looks up in surprise. What the hell's going on?
Another quote mentions that the Excelsior "looks faster than the Enterprise even standing still." Not very useful to our size discussion, but I'd say the modelmakers did achieve that look.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q

Last edited by Praetor; August 19 2013 at 08:17 PM.
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