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Old August 18 2013, 03:47 PM   #166
Crazy Eddie
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Watch it again.
I did. It's obvious they lost sight of Reliant... and that's about it, it seems. "Veered away" would be a course change or a turn and I don't think that actually happens (actually, it could be that Reliant was the one that veered away when the phaers grazed the port side).

It is important to set conditions of the defense so friendly forces can destroy or fix the enemy while preparing to seize the initiative and return to the offense.
Got that? You can destroy the enemy while defending yourself.
Incorrect. Look at the underlined portion there: "friendly forces" refers to somebody OTHER than yourself, someone who may be positioned to go on the offensive. More importantly, the previous chapter makes clear that a defensive action can very suddenly turn into an offensive if the opportunity presents itself and combat forces need to be prepared to go on the offensive in a snap.

Combat units may change "stances" from offensive to defensive and back again many times on any given engagement. This is most explicitly born out in air-to-air combat; one announces he is "engaged defensive" when an enemy aircraft is in or close to a firing position or otherwise has the tactical advantage. He announces "engaged offensive" when he is coming into firing position himself or otherwise has the tactical advantage. Put it more simply: you're "engaged defensive" when the bad guy is on your six; you're "engaged offensive" when you're on HIS six.

In an explicit case I am very familiar with (for deeply personal reasons) an A4 pilot over Vietnam is heard on the radio announcing "engaged defensive" when a Mig-17 comes out of a cloud behind him and opens fire; hilariously, five seconds later the same pilot shouts "engaged offensive" when the Mig overshoots, then another five seconds shouts "engaged defensive" when the Mig's wingman shows up behind him. All three aircraft wind up flying a toilet bowl for almost two minutes until at some point another A-4 pilot asks if he is engaged offensive or defensive and he shouts "Fuck, man, I dunno!"

If it was something that could be manually-corrected then Scotty and co would've ran down to engineering to fix it.
What makes you think the problem was in engineering? They knocked out the automation center; that would imply a problem with the main computer or some portion thereof. Assuming Scotty even knew exactly where the problem was, it probably wouldn't be fixable in any reasonable amount of time.

Whatever Scotty did to setup the automation system would've been a problem for a full crew...
They wouldn't NEED an automation system with a full crew; as Scotty says, "A chimpanzee and two trainees could handle her."

Did Kirk say why they wanted to go back to Genesis prior to finding out about Spock's katra and body? We only know about "inquiries" from the Enterprise to Starfleet and Morrow saying that the Enterprise would "never stand the pounding" as if it was expected to be a combat mission and not a survey mission which was already being conducted by the Grissom.
Kirk says nothing about a combat mission; in the torpedo room:

Kirk: But we had requested.... we'd hoped to take her back to Genesis.
Morrow: That is out of the question.
Kirk: May I ask why?
Morrow: Because, in your absence, Genesis has become a source of galactic controversy.

Since the automation system overload occurred when they attempted to power the shields its connected to the power systems
Again, the system never "shorted out." Scotty says it's "overloaded" which, for a computer system, means he has it trying to do too many things at once and the poor thing can't keep up. This after quickly putting the ship on red alert, quickly loading, arming and firing two photon torpedoes at an enemy ship that has just suddenly appeared out of nowhere. Predictably, the system crashed.

I suppose Scotty must have rigged the automation system using Windows 8.

Which again points to the ship carrying actual equipment, like science and exploration gear. It seems absurd to claim a training ship can blow up a city with a live torpedo but to be unable to make a scientific scan.
There's very little to suggest a training ship CAN blow up a city with a live torpedo, especially considering we've never seen torpedoes actually DO this (hell, two of them were barely sufficient to destroy the unshielded Reliant).

I see. Kirk asked again about their request which would likely be their "inquiries" as mentioned earlier. Why go back still is unknown though. They already have a survey ship there. Was it to hang out with his newly re-connected son, David? And it must not have been initially urgent (before they found out about Spock's katra) since Kirk was willing to wait 2 weeks for the refit.
It it had been URGENT, Kirk never would have gone home at all, he would have just stayed at Genesis and explored it himself.

In the original script, it had everything to do with Spock and his Katra since McCoy started acting weird before they even left Genesis and they figured out what was happening on their own. In the filmed version, it probably has more to do with Kirk wanting to follow up on the Genesis situation, considering the enormity of what the planet represents to him personally.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
After all, the bay doors on the Oberth and the Constellation also look a lot like the doors on the Galaxy and the main bay of the Sovereign.
Which also appear to have very large interior volumes in the saucer. Perhaps unintentionally done by the production folks but it would point to an in-universe reasoning that the ships that stayed in (or will stay in) service the longest are the ones that have space to haul stuff, IMHO
That works. The Constitution refit gutted most of the engineering hull to make room for a single large cargo bay, but the Constellation and Mirandas arguably have even larger cargo bays/hangars and more flexibility in how they're used.

The Excelsiors don't, but then I don't think they were designed to replace the Constitutions in the first place.
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Last edited by Crazy Eddie; August 18 2013 at 04:11 PM.
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