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Old August 16 2013, 04:21 PM   #60
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Location: The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
Re: Oberth Class the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Now I see (literally) better, thanks. But to me this doesn't really look too integrated, more like a structure which rejoins with the saucer for what is possibly a slight improvement of warp performance (i.e. it rather seems to have characteristics of a modern passenger plane's winglet).
Even so, where would the separation line be between the saucer and the rest? It would almost make more sense for the whole horizontal deck to land, sans struts and pod.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Another odd feature are these horizontal intakes (or whatever these are) at the bow of he "warp sled". Have we ever seen this feature on a post-TOS ship?
This is what I was calling attention to earlier - they resemble the stripes on the pylons too, which we traditionally associate with flush intakes on the TMP Enterprise and relatives. Speculating about them probably doesn't help much, but it stands to reason the modelmakers put them on the struts because they assumed the struts fulfill the same function as those on the Enterprise do. I suggested earlier: perhaps the horizontal pylon is just another strut?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
And of course the odd silver cylinders at the front caps of the nacelles plus the silver "balls" sticking out from the sled's bottom (probably cylinders extending from the top to the bottom). Have we ever seen this feature on a post-TOS ship?
Not that I recall, but the Reliant and Stargazer had numerous weird greeblies on the hull.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
It has been mentioned that the caps of the nacelles suggest a late 23rd Century design (based on Excelsior's similar but not identical front caps?). I don't see it.
As Dukhat said, it's more the resemblance to the Excelsior study models. I could see these nacelles fitting in a post-TOS/pre-TMP(refit) design aesthetic though.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
However I'm not that biased not to admit that the pylons' "emergency flush intakes" invoke unmistakable late 23rd Century allusions, because they're the same "flush intakes" as in the pylons of he TMP Enterprise and Reliant, apparently absent on the TOS Enterprise.
Well, if the vents on the top/inward side of the TOS Enterprise fulfilled a similar function, then no problem. And again, I'm starting to think more and more than the Oberth almost represents a "prefit" design, predating the late 23rd century tech a bit.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
But I'm afraid I can only accept this argument if you concur with my theory that the nacelle caps of the TOS Enterprise are not Bussard Ramscoops.

Should you feel these are Bussard Ramscoops then you are aware that the ramscoop idea (design property: glowing orange red) was dropped with the TMP Enterprise and the Excelsior and didn't have an onscreen comeback prior to the Ambassador Class.
Unless the ramscoops are just of a covered variety in the movies era.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Then it would stand to reason that the emergency flush intakes could have been an older concept, featured in the Oberth Class, dropped with the TOS Enterprise before their comeback aboard the TMP Enterprise.
Change "dropped" to "changed" for TOS, and I could see this working.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
We see it missing on a Miranda Class vessel 78 years later.
Either this is a retcon flaw (the original purpose of the pod wasn't understod) or by the 24th Century they found better ways to relocate the antimatter pods within the ships.
Yes, but we also see ships with it during the same era, with relatively high registries.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
If we insisted on an intermix chamber coil in the center of Reliant it would inevitably work like the Enterprise's, i.e. feeding the impulse deflection crystal for boosted impulse power. The problem: Reliant's impulse deflection crystal had been phasered to bits and pieces prior to the Mutara battle, so an active vertical intermix core is the last thing we should have seen in the film and at this location.
One of the impulse deflection crystals had been phasered - don't forget there's also a ventral one. It is entirely possible that the horizontal intermix chamber aligns with the ventral deflection crystal, with an extension going to the dorsal crystal to power the impulse engines. (Which would make me think the impulse engines would have failed at this point either way...)

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The Republic type - am unable to confirm, but recall the registry as being given on-screen. It could be almost any class. Bob: NCC-1371
Corrected - but this was actually stated in dialog, right?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Constitution 1600 - because of TOS-R? If that's the only reason why, I say meh. I could ignore it, especially if we're trying to be true to the original TOS spirit. Would you presuppose this class was outwardly similar but actually different? Wouldn't this actually make this class something different and the 1700s the "real" Constitution class? Bob: No, this is the logical conclusion (and was a "peace" offering) to all those that assume that there is a Constitution Class with starships that closely resemble the Enterprise
To mitigate the Constellation issue? I'd avoid making any peace offerings of this type.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Enterprise 1700 - do you subscribe to the Shane Johnson school of Enterprise-class refits? Bob: To paraphrase your avatar's motto: IMO, canon is what Matt Jefferies (pre-production JRS sketch), Bob Justman, Gene Roddenberry and/or Stephen Whitfield established ("Enterprise Class Starship" The Making of Star Trek) in the absence of onscreen information indicating other than "Starship Class" - fanwank is what Greg Jein and Franz Joseph propagated and is widely assumed to be "Constitution Class". Please donate ANY further comments on this issue to the appropriate threads like this one. THANKS!!!
Just asking the question.

I am of similar mindset, as my motto demonstrates. Although I have great respect for Mr. Jein and Mr. Okuda in other areas, I dismiss many of Mr. Jein's conjectures, particularly where "Court Martial" is concerned.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Entente 2100 - I forget the exact line, but it's in the Epsilon IX chatter somewhere, I think in the extended VHS version. (I don't think they ever call it a "dreadnought" as such.) Bob: Will examine!
Dukhat is right, 2120 is specifically correct, I just put the 2100 as the series it belonged to. As I recall, you have to listen quite carefully to hear it. The clear implication here would seem to be that the NX-2000 already existed, in some form, by TMP. Agree/disagree?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
"A Piece of the Action". Kirk assumes (must have been Starfleet First Contact procedure 100 years earlier) that Bela Oxmyx expects to actually see a Federation vessel landing, thus Kirk advises him "The ship will not land" to avoid wrong expectations.
Ah, I had forgotten that line. I had always taken it to indicate Kirk's assumption of ignorance on Oxmyx's part, rather than an expectation.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Is there any chance we can have a simulation within the overall length of 395' to feature deck heights of 7' or higher?
I'd really like to see where these portholes could match and where not.
Yep, I will work on it this evening. I believe I still have the files I used when helping LCARS24.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
...which open up facing the inside of the warp nacelles Seems rather impractical doesn't it (until the saucer has detached)?
I don't disagree on that one.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
In terms of serial numbers (JRS) "00" is not a number at all, it is Zero. But as a contact code it could work.
Well, if we go by Excelsior, the prototype appears to get the 00, the first production ship appears to get the 01 if Enterprise is indicative.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Since the Horizon obviously "landed" on Sigma Iotia there must have been a good reason for it. Frankly, I think the producers didn't envision transporter technology 100 years prior to TOS.
But surely they envisioned shuttlecraft? I actually like the idea of older starships having separable, landable components - but I'm just not sure about the evidence for it.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
The point is that based on these four study models, it seems very likely that the Oberth was supposed to be contemporary to the Excelsior, and not any older than, say, TMP.
To pick a nit, the design for it isn't any older. We don't necessarily preclude a refit, do we?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Interesting; I don't ever remember hearing this line about the Horizon possibly landing on the planet. But if the ship was Daedalus class, then it wouldn't have a saucer. Of course there's no canonical evidence it was a Daedalus class, other than that possible desktop model. Either way, it sounds like, based just on the dialogue, that the entire ship landed, which would really not work with the Daedalus class.
Does anyone else get the image from "Star Wars: Attack of the Clones" when the Trade Federation battleship sphere had landed? Might actually make the sphere at the end of the boom make sense...

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
But I can't help but notice the obvious retro style of the design study. The secondary hull looks more like Baton Rouge and it's even worse with the nacelles. These look like a prolonged SW clone warrior helmet and invoke design style allusions from the Flash Gordon serials and The Rocketeer.
For in-universe applications a possible inspiration what the 10th (or 14th?) pre-TOS Federation design could have looked like. I love it!
Interesting take... it's certainly "simpler"... but I'm not sure about retro. Would ILM have known what the Baton Rouge looked like?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
It's correct that Matt Decker's Constellation had the aforementioned NCC registry, but to conclude that this has to refer to the earliest vessels of the Constitution Class is conjectural. We cannot exclude the possibility that Matt Decker's ship was merely named and numbered to honor the accomplishments of a deceased Constellation of the 10th Federation design.
If we're counting, I vote for this option. There are other good explanations out there, but most of them try too hard. Why couldn't the modelmakers have just used 1710 instead? Sigh.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
If we started to ignore onscreen TOS dialogue (which in terms of treknological research always comes first, IMHO) and the obvious conclusions we can draw from it, then we might just as well stop he discussion here.

I assume that TPTB that established the Daedalus Class design in DS9 as part of canon (hmm...what about Andrew Probert's genuine Ambassador Class design displayed prominently on the wall of the Enterprise-D's conference lounge? Another topic for another time, but since I'm a pathological Probert flag-waver I can't help, though Andrew was kind enough not to call me "pathological", yet ) were unaware of the implications of this piece of dialogue from "A Piece of the Action" (just because one is a post-TOS expert not automatically makes one a great TOS and pre-TOS expert if you catch my drift ).

Suffice to say I have no issues whatsoever regarding the methodology to use pre-TOS Jefferies concepts to create pre-TOS starships and therefore consider the Daedalus Class as a historic part of canon.
I agreed with you until the last paragraph. I think it's ok to use production concepts to speculate - but I don't think they're ever going to be truly conclusive.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
But I, too, cannot possibly imagine a Deadalus Class starship like the Horizon to be capable landing on a planet as the vessel or parts of it would buckle under their own weight much like a stranded whale, neither can I imagine they had magic technology (like they apparently had for Voyager) at this point in time in the in-universe history.

So how can we possibly rationalize it?
Big, big, big landing legs. How would the Enterprise saucer have landed?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I'd say it's a bad thing to start any kind of relation based on a lie. Had the Horizon crew just used a shuttle craft and present this as their "ship", the Sigma Iotians would eventually find out in the future.
Agreed... but why wouldn't they have said it was a shuttle?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
If we look at Jefferies' early TOS Enterprise "ringship" designs and the subsequent XCV 330 proposals, we'll notice that in the early design stage there wasn't the "enviropod" but actually a space shuttle reminiscent vehicle with the obvious capability to detach and land on a planet.
Interesting - and indeed there did seem to be. "Warp sled" gets some more credence.

Timo wrote: View Post
As for landing a wrecking ball, the most ideal shape for a vessel designed for three-dimensional combat, I don't think it would work well in any level of civilization. Old Egyptians would be terrified that it would roll over their villages!
Ha. That needs to be an episode.

Timo wrote: View Post
But if they don't have magical technology from the get-go, they can't have starships, plain and simple. The Enterprises, all of them, would certainly "collapse under their own weight" if attempting to move in a zero-gee environment. The Oberth likewise.
Agreed. The structure is certainly reinforced by various Treknological magics, without which it would squish at warp speeds.

Timo wrote: View Post
Why? If the natives don't take the intrepid skipper's say-so, what's the point of not displaying weapons? Threats of mass destruction would obviously be the only thing such people would listen. If Earth wants to deal with them at all, it better be ready to stage some executions.

Use of transporters would completely sidestep such problems, of course. If a specific individual needed to be convinced, he or she could be kidnapped effortlessly with a transporter, shown what space looks like, and returned - or then thrown into a brig so that the landing party could beam down to deal with more reasonable people.
Agreed. If anything, people appearing out of thin air almost makes them seem more impressive.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q
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