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Old August 16 2013, 05:19 PM   #294
Robert Comsol
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Location: USS Berlin
Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Praetor wrote: View Post
I have re-read this thread a total of three times now, trying to get my full thoughts to coalesce into something that will resemble coherency. My inability to do so is either a compliment to Robert Comsol and company's thoroughness, or an insult to my mental faculties.
Possibly the constant and inevitable detail revisions I apply and don’t have the time to illustrate in a graphic and concise manner, so I’m most likely the one to be blamed.

I’m grateful that you take the time to get into the details and hopefully encourage others to do so, too. I really miss the feedback of the BBS veterans (“the old ones”) that came before me with their TOS WIP Enterprise threads. Some of their thoughts reflect in my work while other ideas, I’d like to think, could be stuff for interesting discussions.

Praetor wrote: View Post
I wanted to briefly discuss methodology. My first question relates to TMoSt and how you are using it. Your OP states some facts gleaned from there, and I take it you have reviewed the text presented therein somewhat thoroughly.

Praetor wrote: View Post
Is it your intent to use this as your barometer for your overall project? If so, do you factor the Jefferies cross section of the Enterprise into the equation - and if so, how? Further, I'm curious what specifically prompted you to pick the 1080' feet figure instead of the more generally accepted 947'?
Yes, The Making of Star Trek is the barometer unless altered and/or revised by contradicting (first grade canon) TOS onscreen information.

The Jefferies’ cross section / JCS (illustration above):

I’ve mentioned before that I believe there is sufficient evidence that the ship’s internal description was an early concept for one of the pilot film versions (still including a physical Main Deck 2). The text description mentions 11 main decks and 16 engineering decks.

Judging by the sphere at the nacelles’ end, the JCS has to have been drawn after the 11-footer VFX model had been altered for the regular series, thus it cannot come from the “pilot film stage” of production. Notice that Main Deck 2 appears to have been flattened by the lowering of the bridge module!

Where it gets confusing are the visible decks in the JCS. There are only 9 main decks (including the flattened # 2) and only 15 engineering decks (looks like one deck level may have been removed to allow for one taller engineering deck).
I assume Jefferies tried to fix the original, early aforementioned description by taking the studio set deck heights into account, thus the 11 decks were reduced to 9.

Gene L. Coon may not have been aware of this and still went with the old description, therefore Decks 10 and 11 took hits in “Errand of Mercy”. I think this settled the inconsistency and frankly, I feel that this was a good thing as we will (hopefully) see.

In the JCS we see the three vertical main lines (usually mistaken for turbo shafts, IMHO) and a hint of the vertical engineering core in the engineering hull, but not necessarily an exact reproduction to be taken literally (as various other details in the JCS).

The whole deck plan idea started with my intention to illustrate Kirk’s (provisional) cabin on Engineering Deck 12 in “Mudd’s Women”. I realized I couldn’t fit the circular studio set corridor there unless I tweaked it.
To keep this at the absolute minimum I realized I’d have to go for a larger figure of the ship’s overall length. For various reasons – some also discussed in previous TOS Enterprise threads – I went for the 1,080 feet O.L. figure.

I think this one works best as it enables 16 engineering decks with a height often exceeding 9’, most of the main decks to be 9’ tall, the outer ring cabins on Main Deck 5, to have Spock’s turbo lift on Main Deck 7 in “The Naked Time” without further tweaking these corridors, too (thank heavens for that! ), and last but not least a bigger shuttlebay (I assume its VFX footage to have been shot in “X-ray-vision” to give us a better overall idea of this area by removing the stern wall with the part of the U-shaped observation corridor we didn’t see).

Most unfortunately there is a price tag, and that is the inability to properly align the command bridge, so we’d have to assume it to be somewhat larger than it actually was.
IIRC an O.L. of 987’ would enable a perfect match, and this was probably what Matt Jefferies used as a scale reference to come up with the “947 feet” figure (and possibly resulted in him reducing the original 11 decks to only 9 in his JCS).
My approach to apply “Occam’s Razor” is that “the concept that answers more questions than raising new ones, is probably the closest one to the truth”. YMMV, of course.

Praetor wrote: View Post
We know fairly conclusively that the curved corridor was a conceit to make the ship seem bigger than it was. We also know that it was considered advantageous since it corresponded with the curve of the saucer. However, I am not certain how much forethought placed in their staging of scenes, nor how much forethought was placed in the assignment of door numbers.
I’m not sure. The outer cabin ring on Main Deck 5 (revised version!) is a very close call, but still suggests that the radius of the inner corridor (studio set) has the accurate dimensions.
Regarding the door signs (that will conflict in my deck plan drafts) I agree that we need a salt shaker here.
I’m doing my best to have these make sense as much as that may be possible (i.e. these also have an influence on the overall layout, so it’s not just about having a credible turbo lift network and character movements that make sense.)

Praetor wrote: View Post
That said, mine any diamonds from the rough that you can - just remember that if something doesn't work out, it is not unreasonable to chalk something up to a production inconsistency.
That definitely applies to the side door of Kirk’s cabin aboard the ISS Enterprise in the mirror universe which should open to a corridor but instead reveals an extra room for Marla to change clothes. Good thing, then, I’m not attempting to produce deck plans of that ship.

Praetor wrote: View Post
I've mostly assumed that you are doing this without thinking too much of anything introduced from TNG or other series as far as the way technology works - in one post, I believe you (quite correctly) pointed out that the TOS tech could be quite different than anything in a previous era or later era. I wholly agree with this. I'm curious, though, how much thought you have given to trying to reconcile this with the previous or later series? Decks with inconsistent heights, for example, might be considered controversial by 24th century standards.
Yes, in TAS it’s the Engineering Core, in TMP (and TWOK) the Intermix Chamber Coil and in TNG and beyond the Warp Core. I try not to mix lingo from the different Trek incarnations and try to only seek inspiration from post-TOS incarnations where TOS (or TAS) fails to provide the necessary answers.

Nevertheless I’m trying to accomodate TOS Enterprise rooms and corridors from TAS, DS9 and ENT as long as these do not contradict genuine TOS footage or layout suggestions.

Praetor wrote: View Post
Using the yellow circular hatch as a way to allow curved corridors makes sense. I feel that your second revisions of the engineering hull are closer to what I expected from this methodology - curved corridors, yes, but not overabundantly so. I think they key here is balancing out onscreen interpretation with what would actually make sense, which I think you are doing so far. The one thing I might suggest we consider more is how would the ship actually be laid out? Do designers place the turbolifts and corridors first, or the rooms, and put the corridors in between? I think there's a happy medium to be found.
Thank you very much! First and foremost it should be an accurate reproduction of what we saw onscreen because this is the essential reference everyone can relate to. Next, IMHO, the turbo lift network should be accurate, efficient and believable. Eventually the whole layout should look good, which seems (no offense) what you’re aiming at.

The only excuse I’m able to offer is that I don’t pretend to know the intricate details of 23rd Century starship engineering. The circular arrangement inside the engineering hull might be a design feature improving warp drive performance, relieve structural pressure or something along these lines. The remaining challenge will remain to keep the (onscreen) circular corridors but arrange the surrounding areas in a manner that the whole ensemble will look and feel much better than it currently does.

Praetor wrote: View Post
When it comes time to take the project back up, I think it would be logical to take all the WIPs so far and compare them, and perhaps derive a horizontal cross section from them. I'm concerned that you might get so stuck on trying to make the sets fit the available area that we might find they don't stack properly.
Thus far I hope I visited all the other WIP threads, current and closed. There are items I wholeheartedly agree with my esteemed colleagues, there are others where I digress.
While due to my lack of appropriate computer skills I’m still unable to present three-dimensional renderings, I approach the plans with what I hope to be an appropriate awareness of three-dimensionality, nevertheless (e.g. room heights of Engineering Control Room in contrast to room height of Impulse Engine Room).

Praetor wrote: View Post
I wanted to touch briefly on the topic of the warp drive as well. Somehow, the Enterprise combines matter and antimatter, along with dilithium crystals, to make power. And the engine pods somehow warp space and move the ship. From TOS, we do know this. But what we don't know is exactly how it works. We have the "matter/antimatter integrator" in the floor of engineering in season two onward, which was maybe there all along, albeit another room. We have the energizer structures there all along. We have the dilithium room in "The Alternative Factor" which I'll get to in a minute. And we have the cathedral. Oh, and lest we not forget the crawlway Scotty used, in "That Which Survives" I think. That's pretty much all TOS tells us.
Its because of issues like this I created parallel threads to hopefully discuss these subjects to get a better “understanding” in the process.

The confusion you expressed earlier is something I accept full responsibility for, because unless I was done with the Main Deck 7 draft, I hadn’t thought that the “cathedrals” are most likely the enigmatic “energizers” referred to in “The Doomsday Machine”.

The “matter/antimatter integrator” (what a euphemism considering nothing is integrated but everything annihilated instead ) is a can of worms, but I assume it’s not where you believe it is.
The dialogue in “That Which Survives” is obscure at best and conflicting at worst. Nevertheless, blssdwlf and I seem to agree that it has to be at a location where the “jettison” scenario is feasible, and have accordingly concluded that it has to align with one of the bottom hatches of the engineering hull.
My take on it is that it is part of the Engineering Core (a predecessor of TMP’s intermix chamber coil) which essentially looks like a warp engine but, of course, is missing the warp coil elements.

Praetor wrote: View Post
It's my assertion that it was initially thought that the "antimatter pods" were the warp nacelles, and were self-contained, aircraft-style engines. I think this changed as the series went on, and a more hands-on approach was needed. Plot seemed to necessitate the addition of the integrator, which presumable, does just that - uses dilithium to "integrate" matter and antimatter, resulting in power. Somehow, this probably goes through the cathedral and ends up in the engines. The energizers presumably steal power from the main reactor to power everything else.
I think dilithium crystals (my treatise “studying” possible energy amplifying characteristics) do more than that. Here’s my assertion:

“batteries” > dilithium crystals > ignite fusion reactors > dilithium crystals > ignite matter-antimatter reactors > dilithium crystals > boost power for warp drive. The cathedrals / energizers regulate and distribute the available energy, failure of these and you are stuck with battery and/or fusion power only (“The Doomsday Machine”).
Injection of fusion plasma into the matter-antimatter reaction product stream influences warp drive performance (“intermix formula”).
I think that’s in a nutshell what I came up with in trying to get a better idea how the energy plasma tubework inside could or should look like.

Praetor wrote: View Post
I have yet to see a truly satisfactory answer for the "re-amplification" room in "The Alternative Factor." I had always assumed the Enterprise usually carried many backup crystals (lacking in "WNMHGB" and "Mudd's Women," to be sure) which had to be "rested" (but not recrystalized per TVH) through some arcane process.
Most definitely not re-crystallized as in ST IV through gamma radiation, I absolutely agree.

I think “re-amplification” is a strong hint that the crystals can loose their amplification properties and therefore have to be regenerated by some exotic process to regain their original and “full crystal [amplification] power”. While the warp engines occasionally needed to be “re-energized” (i.e. recharged) I don’t think that’s necessarily the case with the crystals where “draining” these, IMO, does not imply “discharge” but instead “degradation of amplification properties”.

Thanks for your feedback, I appreciate that a lot. I intend to get on with the deck drafts at the earliest next opportunity, stay tuned.

"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
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