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Old August 16 2013, 10:29 AM   #57
Robert Comsol
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Location: USS Berlin
Re: Oberth Class the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Yes, thanks for the clarification. I'm aware that the last link you provided - WOW - is a study model for a supposedly late 23rd Century design (for ST III).
But I can't help but notice the obvious retro style of the design study. The secondary hull looks more like Baton Rouge and it's even worse with the nacelles. These look like a prolonged SW clone warrior helmet and invoke design style allusions from the Flash Gordon serials and The Rocketeer.
For in-universe applications a possible inspiration what the 10th (or 14th?) pre-TOS Federation design could have looked like. I love it!

Dukhat wrote: View Post
The Republic's registry is 1371.
Thanks for the correction. I accidentally mistook the erroneous Marvel registry for the real thing.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
The lowest canonical Constitution registry is the Constellation's, 1017.
It's correct that Matt Decker's Constellation had the aforementioned NCC registry, but to conclude that this has to refer to the earliest vessels of the Constitution Class is conjectural. We cannot exclude the possibility that Matt Decker's ship was merely named and numbered to honor the accomplishments of a deceased Constellation of the 10th Federation design.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
The Entente's registry is 2120.
If it is mentioned in TMP (alternate cut or whatever), I'd agree.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
LOL, don't even get me started about the Soyuz class.
Why not? Please elaborate.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
"A Piece of the Action". Kirk assumes (must have been Starfleet First Contact procedure 100 years earlier) that Bela Oxmyx expects to actually see a Federation vessel landing, thus Kirk advises him "The ship will not land" to avoid wrong expectations.
Interesting; I don't ever remember hearing this line about the Horizon possibly landing on the planet. But if the ship was Daedalus class, then it wouldn't have a saucer. Of course there's no canonical evidence it was a Daedalus class, other than that possible desktop model. Either way, it sounds like, based just on the dialogue, that the entire ship landed, which would really not work with the Daedalus class.
Thanks for addressing this issue (I hoped somebody would).

If we started to ignore onscreen TOS dialogue (which in terms of treknological research always comes first, IMHO) and the obvious conclusions we can draw from it, then we might just as well stop he discussion here.

I assume that TPTB that established the Daedalus Class design in DS9 as part of canon (hmm...what about Andrew Probert's genuine Ambassador Class design displayed prominently on the wall of the Enterprise-D's conference lounge? Another topic for another time, but since I'm a pathological Probert flag-waver I can't help, though Andrew was kind enough not to call me "pathological", yet ) were unaware of the implications of this piece of dialogue from "A Piece of the Action" (just because one is a post-TOS expert not automatically makes one a great TOS and pre-TOS expert if you catch my drift ).

Suffice to say I have no issues whatsoever regarding the methodology to use pre-TOS Jefferies concepts to create pre-TOS starships and therefore consider the Daedalus Class as a historic part of canon.

But I, too, cannot possibly imagine a Deadalus Class starship like the Horizon to be capable landing on a planet as the vessel or parts of it would buckle under their own weight much like a stranded whale, neither can I imagine they had magic technology (like they apparently had for Voyager) at this point in time in the in-universe history.

So how can we possibly rationalize it?

I'd say it's a bad thing to start any kind of relation based on a lie. Had the Horizon crew just used a shuttle craft and present this as their "ship", the Sigma Iotians would eventually find out in the future.
As fully adopted UFP members doing historical research the older UFP members would have a diplomatic tiger on their tail to explain why they started relations based on a lie, especially (see the very bottom of this post) since the UFP apparently cherishes the "truth" above almost all things...

But if the Horizon's secondary hull and nacelles merely registered as a "warp sled", then the actual "ship", capable of independent (impulse power) propulsion, would be the primary hull (i.e. sphere).
We'd have a reasonable explanation without the necessity of going into rationalization overdrive, IMHO.

If we look at Jefferies' early TOS Enterprise "ringship" designs and the subsequent XCV 330 proposals, we'll notice that in the early design stage there wasn't the "enviropod" but actually a space shuttle reminiscent vehicle with the obvious capability to detach and land on a planet.

Back to the Daedalus Class I see a rather flimsy cylinder connecting the sphere with the secondary hull that somehow doesn't make sense to me in terms of structural warp stress durability. As a means to facilitate separation of the primary sphere from the secondary hull, I could buy that.

Apparently, "the ship won't land" line is an afterthought of the meticulous screenplay writer/s David P. Harmon and/or Gene L. Coon.
A basic plot premise is that the Sigma Iotians demand physical proof that Kirk and company are not merely local imposters (for all we know the transporter beam effect could be a part of a local entertainment show featuring their version of a Chris Angel ).

Any foresighted Federation official of the mid-22nd Century "First Contact program" would have understood this and therefore a physical display of the "ship" was inevitable (a concept that became obsolete with the introduction of the Prime Directive. A warp capable culture would no longer have required such a physical proof, having other means to determine that the visitors from outer space are for real).

But what kind of physical display? A spaceship with warp nacelles that could and would have instantly been mistaken as cannons, rocket or missile launchers by the alien natives! ?!

Obviously a display that awes but does not intimidate and I believe the only shape that qualifies as such would be the sphere as it's a universal shape that carries familiar allusions to stars and planetary bodies (think E.T....). And the Daedalus Class primary hull / sphere has no external features that could be mistaken for weapons, neither does the Oberth Class saucer.

I further think that the Olympic Class hospital ships of the late 24th Century perfectly reflect this design philosophy and "We come in peace and mean [can do] no harm" intention.

I rest my case.

"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein

Last edited by Robert Comsol; August 16 2013 at 10:42 AM. Reason: typo correction
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