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Old August 5 2013, 09:21 PM   #123
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Darkwing wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
A rigid chain of command doesn't make a military either.
I was saying that, due to the other factors, if I were the UFP government, I'd insist on Starfleet being a military in the sense of civilian control and accountability as we have today.
If you were the UFP government -- or even a member thereof -- you would not possess your present point of view on this matter, either as a matter of historical or traditional understanding. You may indeed belong to a species that has never clearly differentiated military from civilian services (e.g. the Vulcans and the Tellarites) or a species that has had over a hundred years of incredibly bad experiences with trying to keep its professional military services from overthrowing the civilian government (a 22nd/23rd century human).

It's not as if the Federation is just Super America and can one-for-one transplant American logic into Federation governance; more to the point, we know for a fact that we can't because the Federation's future history depicts the United States as having been blown to smithereens in a nuclear war its population barely survived.

Interesting idea - I don't agree, in regards to the UFP, because the original show based the UFP on a hybrid of the US & UN...
As far as I can tell the show runners never actually made up their mind what the Federation really was until after the show went of the air. For much of the first season Enterprise was considered to be an "Earth vessel," a carryover from "The Cage" where "United Space" was an organization subordinate to Earth (kinda like the Systems Alliance from Mass Effect is basically synonymous with "the humans"). The Federation acts as a space UN in "Journey to Babel" where it's implied that Federation members are basically sovereign states and not members of a galactic superstate as such, but even then it's unclear exactly what kind of government now exists on Earth.

You could extrapolate a lot from the movies and the TNG era, but that doesn't translate very neatly into TOS.

It's been a long time, but I thought I recalled the ep with the Odyssey showing smaller craft than that, and the ones you refer to being the norm later on.
The four ships that destroyed the Odyssey were the standard Jem'hadar battle bugs we saw in the rest of the series. The one that finally rams the deflector dish is about as wide and as high as the Odyssey's main deflector.

They don't have the tools, equipment, and sheer volume to work in to have much more...
The runabout has a jeffries tube that allows access to its engineering components. More to the point, we have actually seen Starfleet offiers performing repairs on runabouts AND shuttlecraft while still in space, something I wouldn't want to chance in a single-seat fighter even with a space suit handy.

Significantly, the Romulan fighters on the Scimitar do not appear to be equipped with warp drive. More significantly, the Scimitar never launches any of them during the fight with Enterprise. These two combined indicate that at least Romulan fighters are not useful in ship-to-ship combat.
Scimitar had a perfect cloak; why bother with fighters?
Indeed. So why did they even HAVE fighters in the first place?

The only help it provides the pro-fighter argument is that they exist, and therefore have some use...
And that use is most likely in a ground attack role, IMO.
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