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Old July 30 2013, 09:09 PM   #74
Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
But it is the content of the film.
No. "Nero destroys starships using red matter" is not the content of the film.
It's just about the only possible content of it, as Nero is shown incapable of destroying multiple starships by any other means.

Timo wrote:
No, when it is engaged in a desperate battle with a midget spacecraft a few seconds before the red matter detonation.
But you said it could offer no resistance to the Enterprise. Now it sounds like you're talking about the Jellyfish, which only gets close enough to ram Nero due to the Enterprise shooting down the missiles targeting it. We were told outright what would happen if several missiles hit the Enterprise.
In the "battle" with the Jellyfish, the Narada demonstrates it cannot threaten modern starships with its missiles at all. Sulu shoots down all of them with ease! Nero's only weapon is surprise, and utter devotion to crazy revenge. Wait, that's two weapons...

A threat in Klingon space, that they don't exactly have a mandate to go traipsing around in? That they wouldn't be expected to do anything about?
V'Ger toasted Klingon ships next door to Earth. That got a reaction. Why shouldn't this mysterious supership get the same treatment?

How does that in any way affect the Federation response at Vulcan, other than in needlessly running the risk that someone figures out the Vulcan situation is a trap?
Starfleet can't risk not sending everything it's got to stop the new menace. If it killed fifty Klingon ships, the only hope of stopping it starts at sending two hundred ships.

It doesn't look like it. That appears to be a bunch of ships shot up by missiles, not a bunch of ships sucked into a red matter black hole. When Vulcan was destroyed, or when the Narada was destroyed, they didn't leave "carnage" behind.
When the Narada was hit with the full might of the entire supply of red matter, she was twisted and shattered, with "carnage" in evidence, but with habitable spaces within still remaining. No different from what happened to those starships over Vulcan.

When Vulcan went, we were too far away to see what was left.

Timo wrote:
a move that doesn't work with surprise arrivals such as the delayed Enterprise.
Enterprise is really no more of a surprise arrival than the other ships, unless you think Nero can somehow precisely calculate Starfleet response time.
Why would he have any difficulty doing that? Starfleet is rushing towards Vulcan to help, obviously constantly sending messages to Nero that tell of their ETA...

The fleet arrives all at once, quite possibly plunging into a red matter minefield. There's no time to reset that minefield for the late arrival. But there's the shock and awe effect: Pike doesn't seem to think he could shoot down the incoming missiles, even though he has studied the Kelvin incident and learned that George Kirk did that just fine.

In the script, as opposed to the final version of the film, the timeline is different. The message about the Rura Penthe battle comes first, then the "lightning storm" of Spock's emergence. This shows that from the POV of the script the Narada was intended to be strong enough to destroy a Klingon armada without the red matter, and IMO it seems dubious to assume that the ship was rendered incapable of doing so just because the Rura Penthe scenes were deleted.
This is the logical consequence of the change - but not only that. It is also the logical consequence of the demonstrated weakness of the non-military mining rig in all onscreen combat. Together, these create consistency. Appealing to rejected story ideas creates inconsistency.

Timo Saloniemi
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