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Old July 21 2013, 12:56 PM   #65
Mario de Monti
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Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

Wow, you guys have certainly been busy posting, while I enjoyed yet another gorgeous summer day

After all that has been said here, I think my initial question has been answered: For one, we Germans really seem to be dealing with that part of (our) history differently than other countries do - or with their histories. But mostly I guess it comes down to whether or not you take Spock´s remark serious or as a comic relief.

M wrote: View Post
Being German living in Germany all my life I never had a serious problem with the line. I know that for some Germans the mere mention of anything Nazi-related in a not so serious tone can be considered too much, and I certainly understand that sensitivity, but personally, I don't feel there should be anything which can't be joked about. Spock's line to Kirk is meant in a light-hearted way, and I never saw it as anything other than that.
Well said, I basically see it the same way. Like I said it just never occured to me, Spock´s line was supposed to be a comic relief.

M wrote: View Post
As for the original German dub produced in the 70s: I was never a fan of that version of TOS. Growing up that was all I had, and I think for a long time it was the reason why I couldn't take the series very seriously. When I first saw the original versions on VHS I was blown away by the earnestness and I fell in love with it instantly. Today it's my favorite Trek after DS9.

I can't get behind the thought process of those people responsible for the "funny" German dub of TOS. Why try to make it into a show for children? Why the constant mispronounciation of certain names and terminologies (for some reason Kirk always calls Chekov "Pane", for example).
That of course is a matter of personal taste But I don´t really think the German dub made TOS a silly children´s show. I like it as much today (at age 39) as I did as a child. When I´m in a bad mood, I just have to pop in the German version of "That Which Survives" and I´ll laugh all troubles away

ShadowAngel wrote: View Post
Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
Patterns of Force& however is a completely different story: It had indeed been banned for decades
Patterns of Force was never banned here in Germany. Back in the 70's when the ZDF bought the rights to Star Trek they didn't choose the episode and thus it was never overdubbed. Later when Sat.1 did a re-run in the early 90's they too didn't bother with the episode because then it was rated "16 years and above" (while every other episode was "12 and above") and with that rating they could've only shown it after 10 PM, thus they decided against using the episode.
I stand corrected, regarding the episode being banned. But still the facts remain, that it hadn´t been shown in Germany for some 20 years, and that it got a completely different dub (and thus a different feel to it) as the rest of the episodes. That´s what I was going for.

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
@Mario and M: great information, thanks a lot. With all the changes, were the characterizations also vastly different? Was Kirk shown to be more impulsive, brazen, or gung ho (I'm thinking of the line from 99 Luftballons, "Jeder war ein großer Krieger/Hielten sich für Captain Kirk")?
Not really, no. They just added funny remarks and jokes, but basically to all the main characters. That of course made them appear "lighter". As to why Nena chose Kirk in her song, I´m not sure. But I guess it just rhymes well with the next line "Es gab ein großes Feuerwerk".

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I could imagine that Germans have already grown tired of all those Nazi comparisons. Just like French grow tired of those stupid surrender jokes. It's been sixty years, almost 4 generations. Seriously, there is no responsibility left for what their ancestors did. I've been to Germany a couple of times, they are fine people.
Thanks for saying that

Kinokima wrote: View Post
The thing that makes the Nazis convenient villains is the label of Nazis not German.

Although of course Nazis are often shown to be German in media we can still separate them from the culture of Germany, since Nazis have their own specific culture if that makes sense.

But yes Germany of today should never be associated with Nazis. I have never been there but have met many nice people from there.

And besides Germany has admirably admitted their guilt during WWII, more so than many other countries for that matter.
You´re absolutely right, thanks for seeing it that way. And of course Nazis are convenient as villains in movies because - well they were! At least those responsible for the death camps, human experiments, slave labor and all sorts of unimaginable artrocities - not the simple soldiers or civilians who just joined the Nazi party because everybody did so and because of the advantages it brought them. So yeah, go ahead and use them as villains or ridicule them, I have no problem with that. No problem rooting for Indiana Jones and laughing about the incomepetence and stupitity of the Germans

Kinokima wrote: View Post
When you say you enjoy Hogan's Heroes do you mean the German version or the US version? I understand in the German version much of the dialog was changed to remove things associated with Nazis. A lot of the jokes are different too.
I actually wasn´t aware of this difference, I only know the German version. Sounds like the perfect reason to finally buy that great show on DVD

So once again thanks to everyone for your opinions, comments and nice remarks And since my question is now answered, we can all go back to more important things - namely obsessing about some other minute bits of Trek

"Do you give me attitude, Spock?" - "I´m expressing multiple attitudes simultaneously, Sir. To which are you referring?"
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