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Old July 21 2013, 05:28 AM   #388
Location: This dry land thing is too wierd!
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Darkwing wrote: View Post
Eddie, remember Trek was based on the age of sail.
No, Trek was based on the age of American colonization (hence Rodenberry's "Wagon Train to the Stars" pitch and the treating of whole planets as simply larger-than-normal adventure towns). As such, Enterprise' mission was originally conceived as a group of professional explorers opening up space for Earth expansion on "the final frontier". The military nature of whatever organization the Enterprise belonged to wasn't really even a question (nor had they completely decided what kind of organization that really was, e.g. UESPA vs. Space Central vs. Starfleet).
Yes, Roddenberry explicitly based it on the Hornblower novels. The "wagon train to the stars" bit was his pitch to the networks BECAUSE it was a current show they could grasp as a metaphor.

The series EVOLVED to a kind of begin to resemble the Age of Sail in TOS' third season, but was never really "Based on" that concept until Nicholas Meyer picked that premise and ran it for a touchdown in Wrath of Khan.
Meyer based Khan on submarines, not age of sail.

I didn't say it necessarily should. I'm suggesting then "The Mote" never had any illusions about the human space force being anything but a full standing military organization, and therefore represents a kind of reference point to what "the military can also explore" would actually look like if applied properly.
No, I'm saying that you seem to assume a military starfleet MUST look like the Macarthur.

Another (possibly better) point is the Earth Alliance in Babylon 5: nobody is mincing words about what Earthforce actually is, despite the fact that their largest and most awe-inspiring starships are specifically designed for exploration. Captain Sheridan is depicted as having occasionally performed exploration missions on the Agamemnon, and we later learn that Earth-Minbari War was primarily the result of a spectacular misunderstanding during an otherwise peaceful exploration mission into Minbari space. The Earth Alliance has detailed and extensive first contact protocols and devotes a fair amount of its resources to charting new worlds and contacting new civilizations as well. So here, too, we have a space military that seems to have a very large science/exploration budget, but has never pretended to be anything other than a standing military and has never equivocated about their mission statement.
JMS did it right. Roddenberry did the first time around, but got it wrong the second.

In summary: for all the characteristics people keep listing of modern militaries, the one thing they all possess -- the one thing Starfleet lacks -- is absolute clarity over the fact that they ARE the military. That there's even room for the question suggests everything we need to know.
That tells me you know nothing about the military.

Star Trek presented many strange ideas for many different reasons; the idea that an armed exploration service with an explicitly non-military charter could function as the primary peacekeeping force for an entire nation is NOT, in fact, the strangest thing they have ever asked us to believe.
I didn't say "strange", I said inane, as in stupid and irrational. Why are you so devoted to "proving" the non-military nature of a patently military organization?
If you donít drink the kool-aid, youíre a baaad person - Rev Jim Jones
Almond kool-aid, anyone? Or do you prefer pudding?- Darkwing
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