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Old July 17 2013, 02:43 AM   #89
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
So what does this land army look like?
Realistically -- as in, consistent with what Star Trek has shown us in the past -- most likely a combination of the MACOs and the Andorian Royal Guard updated with 24th century technology.
The MACOs and Andorians on Enterprise were part of an early Starfleet that went through many changes. It didn't look or act like TOS Starfleet just like TOS Starfleet doesn't look or act like TNG Starfleet.

If there were separate DS9 Starfleet Military guys you would think we would've seen them in the ground combat scenarios?

And if we're going on the military ranks of the MACOs which consisted of ground forces-type ranks then Colonel West of Starfleet would equate to the Military. This would indicate by TOS the Military was integrated into and synonymous with Starfleet. (And that tallies nicely with Carol and David Marcus calling Starfleet the Military.)

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The absence of the Andorians in significant numbers in the Dominion War is otherwise too suspicious to be explained away by the writers simply forgetting they exist;
It might be more beneficial to your argument if you addressed the absence of MACOs before the Andorians.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
That's not to say that's the way things SHOULD have gone done. Ideally -- as in, consistent with what Star Trek could/should have shown us based on the 24th century's level of technology -- a Federation ground army would probably look a lot like these guys.
Perhaps. Although 24th century tech might be more compact and involving portable shields and combat drones.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
If the Vorta or Founders ordered Jem'hedar ships to bombard and destroy their targets they will do so.
I doubt that they'd bother ordering it. The Jem'hadar are both completely disposable and EXTREMELY effective in ground combat. Forcing the Federation to commit resources to a land action would be advantageous from a morale, strategic and political standpoint, and also would be a lot more fun for the Jem'hadar.
Well in "What You Leave Behind" in short order the Dominion caused 800 million casualties. It would appear regardless on how they do it they can be ordered to wipe out whole planets. Billions would not be an issue.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Theoretically, it DID. Enterprise-E originally had five torpedo launchers to the E-D's three, and backstage sources claimed each of those launchers could fire a volley of six torpedoes on their own. The Nemesis retrofit added four additional torpedo tubes to the ship which probably can only fire individually but at least one is seen firing clusters of three at the Scimitar.
A single volley of 3 still is a step back from the 6 at a time that the E-D could manage.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
DS9 battles don't appear to give them any SHIELDING either. YMMV.
Or they could be running conformal shields

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
If military readiness was a high priority, they wouldn't have drawn ANY. They would have tested M5 on an unmanned platform first and evaluated its performance in conjunction with normal starship operations so as not to divert fleet resources away from their regular patrol duties (basically, how the Navy's been testing the QF-47 prototypes).
Since they were doing live wargames it would make sense that they used actual ships rather than drones. Firing low-power phasers for the wargame makes sense as it has the exact same performance and need not be simulated. It makes sense that a military wargame would want to be as realistic as possible and this would indicate the testing was beyond using unmanned drones and such.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
That's kind of my overall point about Starfleet, though. The reason they don't classify it as a military organization is because military organizations are hard to justify -- politically and monetarily -- in peace time.
If your point was more specific to periods of peace time then I wouldn't be debating you However since you lump the entirety of Starfleet's existence into a non-military organization then that's where you took it too broadly.

TOS and TOS Movies point to a Starfleet as The Military. TNG and ENT does not. DS9 they went military during the war. AbramsTrek stayed non-Military.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
But that range of opinions can only exist where Starfleet's official status is TECHNICALLY not a military one.
Its not a range of opinions but statements at different points in time. TOS/TOS Movies had dialogue calling Starfleet, "The Military". TNG had dialogue calling Starfleet a non-military. That indicates Starfleet's organization and role changes back and forth over time.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Which is why I agree that to the non-Military Starfleet during TNG would've been a big deal. But that would not be the case in TOS Starfleet which was mobilized for war as a military.
I'm sure the TOS fleet mobilized for a limited war over the Arkanis sector (as the TNG fleet did just prior to the Dominion War) but for reasons outlined above I am less sure that this makes them a military organization. More militaristic, sure, but that's a different issue altogether.
When Starfleet in "Wrath of Khan" is referred to as "The Military" it leaves little room to argue that they are not the military in TOS. This is the same as Picard's "Starfleet is not a military" statement in TNG.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
"A Taste of Armageddon" didn't give any indication that a bluff was being used at all. This is unlike any of the other episodes where we are told or can tell that it is a bluff like "Corbomite".
The only reason we know Corbomite was a bluff is because they were all laughing their asses off that it ended up working (because Kirk had literally made it up right that minute). Kirk used the same bluff against the Romulans in "The Deadly Years" where it was slightly less obvious that he was yanking their collective chains.
The dialogue and scene in "The Corbomite Maneuver" spelled out that it was a bluff. The use of Corbomite in "The Deadly Years" was a nice bit of continuity and used as a bluff with supporting dialogue.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
General Order 24 as a "insider's reference" would be a lot more consistent with what we know about Kirk (and actually, Starfleet) than it would with their willingness to glass entire planets just because they don't get their way. It would, for example, mirror Spock's "in plain sight" coding of their communications in TWOK: "If we went by the book -- like Lieutenant Saavik -- hours would seem like days."
And Spock and Saavik discuss their deception so we know that it was code. This does not occur in "A Taste of Armageddon".

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Kirk calling Scotty about General Order 24 would probably reflect some specific scenario in the academy simulators; say, a way to resolve hostage situations by convincing the hostage takers that your orbiting ship is about five minutes away from glassing the whole planet because the hostage takers don't know enough about Starfleet to chance this being a ruse. It would work ESPECIALLY well on the Eminians, who have apparently concocted this entire computer-controlled war system purely to avoid damaging their cities and cultural heritage; the threat of a starship raining uncontrolled destruction on them would have been terrifying on multiple levels.
Unlike the other bluffs and tricks that Kirk did in other episodes this had no indication that it was one at any time. Even when Kirk and Spock had secured the room Kirk's order to Scotty was to follow through with it if something should happen.
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