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Old July 16 2013, 04:40 AM   #87
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
So what does this land army look like?
Realistically -- as in, consistent with what Star Trek has shown us in the past -- most likely a combination of the MACOs and the Andorian Royal Guard updated with 24th century technology. The absence of the Andorians in significant numbers in the Dominion War is otherwise too suspicious to be explained away by the writers simply forgetting they exist; in TOS they were described as a "warrior race" whose volatile natures are only barely checked by enlightened self interest. In the same way that Starfleet seems to be dominated by humans (having a cultural affinity for peaceful exploration and bridge-building anyway), the Federation's ground forces are almost certainly dominated by Andorians, whom we later discover are notoriously militaristic and even have ritualistic hand-to-hand combat rites to settle certain disputes.

IOW: we never saw the Federation's principle land army in the same way (and probably for the same reason) that we never saw a SINGLE Andorian in all of TNG or DS9.

That's not to say that's the way things SHOULD have gone done. Ideally -- as in, consistent with what Star Trek could/should have shown us based on the 24th century's level of technology -- a Federation ground army would probably look a lot like these guys.

If the Vorta or Founders ordered Jem'hedar ships to bombard and destroy their targets they will do so.
I doubt that they'd bother ordering it. The Jem'hadar are both completely disposable and EXTREMELY effective in ground combat. Forcing the Federation to commit resources to a land action would be advantageous from a morale, strategic and political standpoint, and also would be a lot more fun for the Jem'hadar.

If it came down to firing more simultaneous torpedoes giving the firing ship an advantage you'd think the E-E would have that same capability.
Theoretically, it DID. Enterprise-E originally had five torpedo launchers to the E-D's three, and backstage sources claimed each of those launchers could fire a volley of six torpedoes on their own. The Nemesis retrofit added four additional torpedo tubes to the ship which probably can only fire individually but at least one is seen firing clusters of three at the Scimitar.

I don't think they have heavier shielding (see Battle of Chintoka) or raw power (which would give them a phaser output advantage) as DS9 battles don't appear to give them an edge.
DS9 battles don't appear to give them any SHIELDING either. YMMV.

The live exercises involved a surprise attack and a fleet action in addition to the exploration and navigation. If military readiness wasn't a high priority I doubt they'd draw off *five* starships into a wargame.
If military readiness was a high priority, they wouldn't have drawn ANY. They would have tested M5 on an unmanned platform first and evaluated its performance in conjunction with normal starship operations so as not to divert fleet resources away from their regular patrol duties (basically, how the Navy's been testing the QF-47 prototypes).

I'd argue that the M5 unit wasn't going for just use in wartime but also in peacetime as well. Otherwise, M5 and all the ships that it commanded would be mothballed during peacetime. (And that would seem to be a waste of resources.)
That's kind of my overall point about Starfleet, though. The reason they don't classify it as a military organization is because military organizations are hard to justify -- politically and monetarily -- in peace time. An exploration fleet is probably easier, especially in a culture where aggressive space exploration is a lot more popular politically than aggressive militarism. The defense establishment of the Federation would simply see this as a relationship of convenience: they'll never convince anyone to fund the kind of military the Federation needs, but they CAN convince Starfleet to make itself prepared to step into that role if and when it becomes necessary to do so.

That leaves open for debate to what extent that role is necessary and how important it really is to Starfleet in the first place. You'd have a wide range of opinions among various officers and commands, depending on what's going on in the world and their own point of view. But that range of opinions can only exist where Starfleet's official status is TECHNICALLY not a military one.

IOW, the debate we're having right now probably mirrors the debate with Starfleet's own command structure. Different sides probably have more influence year after year, depending on current events, but there's never a solid consensus one way or the other.

The Klingons were going after the Cardassians because they believed the Founders had infiltrated their government. They were going to use that as an excuse to take their territory and eliminate the Dominion influence all in one war.
Actually, they were using that as an excuse to re-embrace the kind of imperialistic militarism that originally made them enemies of the Federation a hundred years earlier. That was the whole issue with Gowron trying to take the Klingons back to "the old ways."

Which is why I agree that to the non-Military Starfleet during TNG would've been a big deal. But that would not be the case in TOS Starfleet which was mobilized for war as a military.
I'm sure the TOS fleet mobilized for a limited war over the Arkanis sector (as the TNG fleet did just prior to the Dominion War) but for reasons outlined above I am less sure that this makes them a military organization. More militaristic, sure, but that's a different issue altogether.

"A Taste of Armageddon" didn't give any indication that a bluff was being used at all. This is unlike any of the other episodes where we are told or can tell that it is a bluff like "Corbomite".
The only reason we know Corbomite was a bluff is because they were all laughing their asses off that it ended up working (because Kirk had literally made it up right that minute). Kirk used the same bluff against the Romulans in "The Deadly Years" where it was slightly less obvious that he was yanking their collective chains.

General Order 24 as a "insider's reference" would be a lot more consistent with what we know about Kirk (and actually, Starfleet) than it would with their willingness to glass entire planets just because they don't get their way. It would, for example, mirror Spock's "in plain sight" coding of their communications in TWOK: "If we went by the book -- like Lieutenant Saavik -- hours would seem like days."

Kirk calling Scotty about General Order 24 would probably reflect some specific scenario in the academy simulators; say, a way to resolve hostage situations by convincing the hostage takers that your orbiting ship is about five minutes away from glassing the whole planet because the hostage takers don't know enough about Starfleet to chance this being a ruse. It would work ESPECIALLY well on the Eminians, who have apparently concocted this entire computer-controlled war system purely to avoid damaging their cities and cultural heritage; the threat of a starship raining uncontrolled destruction on them would have been terrifying on multiple levels.
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