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Old July 16 2013, 12:03 AM   #1821
Lapis Exilis
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Disagree, I think Dany is one of the most deluded, entitled characters in the series. She has no first hand memories or experience of Westeros, yet wishes to rule. She claims to be anti-slavery, yet plans to conquer Westeros by force and have everybody bend the knee to her. She "trains" to become a good queen by using brown people as guinea pigs.
Interesting - and a very defendable position, I think. I agree that she has a healthy dose of "I'm a queen by birth, and will rule people, one way or another." But that is also the general culture of the whole world - some folks are rulers and everyone else is ruled. Stannis is likewise looking to conquer Westeros by force and have everyone bend the knee. The Lannisters are already there on that score -though less by force than by cunning since Cersei knows quite well that her children aren't the rightful rulers by any law or custom.

However, Dany's nearly the only character vying for the throne that we've seen give consideration to what justice actually is and how to mete it out. Stannis believes he already knows what justice is and that confidence, while I can see its appeal, reads to me as dangerous.

As for her "using brown people as guinea pigs" - the whole series suffers from a healthy dose of Orientalist racism. That's more an issue with Martin than any of his characters. I think Dany is working with who she has to hand. She thinks constantly of the former slaves as her children. Granted that's paternalism (or rather maternalism) reminiscent of the slave culture of the American South, but it's not like she's thinking of the Essosi as any more inferior than the small folk of Westeros. That is, she's an equal opportunity classist.


Brendan Moody wrote: View Post

There's disproportionate fan hate for all the major female characters, except Brienne and Arya, who are close enough to traditional male heroism that fanboy sexism doesn't come into play.
I'm just dipping my toes into the ASoIaF fan culture since I only just finished the books - so this is an interesting observation. One of the things I really like about Martin's work is that he manages to create fully realized female characters who are true to the limitations placed on women in a warrior culture and who are completely as interesting as the male characters and I would imagine this is part of the appeal of the books across the board. I know it has certainly been a big thing for all the female fantasy fans I know who are into the books or HBO series.
DalekJim wrote: View Post
Judging by the Westeros forums.. fans hate every character? I've seen huge hate-wagons for Bran, Jon, Catelyn, Ned, Jaime, Sansa, Arya, Robb, Tyrion...

Everybody.
Eh, it always seems that way because part of the fun of geeking out on a forum is to be wildly passionate about your opinions.

Loads of fans hate Sansa but she's one of my favourites, I think some of George's best writing is found in her chapters. Especially the Eyrie stuff. Really melancholic.
I agree - while I find her naivete tiresome at times, that is her limitation, just like every other character has theirs.


And I love Stannis. I just don't feel the need to whitewash him so much he doesn't even resemble the character of Stannis Baratheon. He's obviously not a "good guy". He's a character who's moral absolutism frequently tip him between making likable and unlikable decisions. He's not some flawless 2-dimensional paragon of good.
Good point, though I still find him much less interesting than the cast of characters surrounding him. His moral absolutism reminds me of my dad, which is probably why he can rub me the wrong way sometimes!
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