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Old July 15 2013, 02:50 AM   #86
Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
They're not. They just get saddled with that duty at AR-558 because literally nobody else in the universe could be spared for that mission.
Oh they very much are Starfleet.
Of course they are. They're just not the principle land army of the Federation.
So what does this land army look like? The only one we've seen in the various land battles are Starfleet guys.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Not every or even most Jem'hadar ships have founders on board (it's not even clear they all have a Vorta). Even with that, the Jem'hadar are good at coming up with excuses for a land action even when orbital bombardment might well be feasible (it is, after all, why they are designed the way they are).
If the Vorta or Founders ordered Jem'hedar ships to bombard and destroy their targets they will do so.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The phaser arrays on the Galaxy class are far more advanced and supposedly more powerful than anything the fleet has ever used before. Moreover, the torpedo launcher on the galaxy class has a (seldom used) capacity to launch large volleys of torpedoes simultaneously -- up to six in a single shot -- while older/smaller designs have to make due with spreads of two to four at most.
If it came down to firing more simultaneous torpedoes giving the firing ship an advantage you'd think the E-E would have that same capability. The phasers on Galaxy-class ships didn't appear to be any more effective against same type targets when you compare them to the smaller/older designs as seen in the DS9 battles.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The Galaxy and Nebula classes also have much heavier shielding and far more raw power available than the Excelsiors or Mirandas could feasibly generate.
I don't think they have heavier shielding (see Battle of Chintoka) or raw power (which would give them a phaser output advantage) as DS9 battles don't appear to give them an edge.

Now they do have more bulk to be destroyed though

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Both are possible, but it doesn't seem to me that Starfleet has EVER placed that high a priority on military readiness. Of particular interest is the testing of the M5 unit for compatibility with Starfleet systems; not just the battle drills were evaluated, but also the M5's capacity to conduct an exploration survey and manage/coordinate an away team.
The live exercises involved a surprise attack and a fleet action in addition to the exploration and navigation. If military readiness wasn't a high priority I doubt they'd draw off *five* starships into a wargame.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
This interests me because that doesn't seem to be the kind of test you would need to assign to a computer. M5 could be used to run unmanned combat vessels fairly easily, it wouldn't actually need to be in command of a ship with a scientific crew in the first place. A military-minded Starfleet would have deployed M5 (or a few of its predecessors) in the combat role first, and then asked Daystrom if he could adapt the M5 unit to the exploration program once its operational record had been established.
I'd argue that the M5 unit wasn't going for just use in wartime but also in peacetime as well. Otherwise, M5 and all the ships that it commanded would be mothballed during peacetime. (And that would seem to be a waste of resources.)

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Actually, they seemed to be deciding the fates of the contested colonies/worlds, but little else.
If the Klingons caught what was left of the Cardassian government in that space battle it would've been a different fate for their short war.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
OTOH, the Klingon-Cardassian war is an unprecedented event in Cardassian history as well and represents an enormous bit of "Oh shit, the Klingons are expanding again!" badness for the entire universe.
The Klingons were going after the Cardassians because they believed the Founders had infiltrated their government. They were going to use that as an excuse to take their territory and eliminate the Dominion influence all in one war.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Compare it to the brief Klingon-Federation skirmish over Arkanis a few months later, or to the battles of Wolf 359 or the massacre at the Omarian Nebula. It seems to me that prior to the Dominion War a typical military conflict would involve at most 30 to 50 starships centered around a fairly limited local objective (a contested solar system or a particular planet in said system).
Considering that Starfleet (and probably the Klingons) mothballed their military after "The Undiscovered Country" it would mean any military conflicts all the way to TNG would not be an all-out war and just limited-force engagements.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Evidently, it WAS.
Which is why I agree that to the non-Military Starfleet during TNG would've been a big deal. But that would not be the case in TOS Starfleet which was mobilized for war as a military.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
wlf, I'm starting to think that the only real difference between you and me is that you believe Starfleet geared up for combat prior to the Dominion War and BECAME a military organization while I believe that Starfleet did not formally BECOME a military organization and was therefore (still) woefully unprepared for the Domion when fighting finally broke out. Given another few years they probably would have hit the point of no return and restructured dramatically, but we didn't really see that happen in DS9; it would have been a pretty big deal, and not something that would have gone on in the background without a mention.
I don't have exactly the same view, but I do believe that Starfleet went full military during the Dominion War. Sisko and Nog both spoke of themselves as soldiers and troops. What they did do was prevent the Military (Starfleet) from usurping power over the civilian Federation government.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
You mention that alot, but Scotty never actually did it and it's far from certain that he really would have if it came to it. For all we know, General Order 24 is an inside joke (like "Kobyashi Maru") which roughly means "Bluff your ass off because the enemy doesn't know us that well."
"A Taste of Armageddon" didn't give any indication that a bluff was being used at all. This is unlike any of the other episodes where we are told or can tell that it is a bluff like "Corbomite".
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