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Old July 11 2013, 05:52 PM   #359
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Location: Mentally? . . . that's debatable.
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The Hagannah was sufficiently well-armed to fight successful wars against the British, Jordanian, Egyptian and Syrian militaries in 1947 and 48. They did not become a military force, however, until the State of Israel incorporated them into the IDF.
That's a fascinating story, however, nowhere in the definition of armed forces does it declare that said armed force needs to be established or maintained by a sovereign state. All it needs is 1) uniforms, 2) chain of command, 3) be armed and 4) fight. You and 5 of your best friends could dress up in Starfleet uniforms (or Klingon, whatever) and form your own military. Make one of you in charge and arm yourselves and prepare for battle. I doubt you would gain much (besides derision and laughter from your neighbors) but that's all you need. Its very simple despite your refusal to accept it. The whole "original charter needs to state that its a military" or "it needs to be established as a military by the state", etc, ideas are just fictional traits you made up in your head and only applicable in your own imaginary world. They are not part of real world.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
This is also true of most of the major combatants of the Indian Wars from the 1790s through the 1880s; with the possible exception of the Iroquois Confederacy, none of the tribal nations actually bothered to create a combat organization and simply called up everyone who could carry a weapon and organized them into war parties
And if they were organized into war parties and armed . . . you have provided a fine example of a native american military . . . . . sooooooo . . . . what's your point again? Apparently you are surprised to learn that for most of human history the armed forces were not full time soldiers but only organized in time of conflict. Remember, we are discussing actual history and conventions and not simply the personalized definitions you would implement in "Crazy-Eddietopia".

International convention...
Would identify Starfleet under the umbrella definition of "armed forces." Significantly, "armed forces" and "military" are not interchangeable terms.

Basically, you bolded the wrong portion:

In essence, this definition of armed forces covers all persons who fight on behalf of a party to a conflict and who subordinate themselves to its command. As a result, a combatant is any person who, under responsible command, engages in hostile acts in an armed conflict on behalf of a party to the conflict. The conditions imposed on armed forces vest in the group as such. The members of such armed forces are liable to attack.
This definition of armed forces builds upon earlier definitions contained in the Hague Regulations and the Third Geneva Convention which sought to determine who are combatants entitled to prisoner-of-war status. Article 1 of the Hague Regulations provides that the laws, rights and duties of war apply not only to armies, but also to militia and volunteer corps fulfilling four conditions:
Meaning one does not need to be a member of one's military to be considered a combatant and therefore subject to POW protections of the Geneva Conventions. Which is why "the rights and duties" also apply to non-military organizations that choose to take part in war as combatants.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, reading comprehension aside, that passage is a generic compilation of ideas from multiple sources (various field manuals, treaties, et al) and only REFERS to the Hague Convention's criteria. I previously listed the traits of an armed force (which you conveniently ignore each time) which Starfleet met gloriously. I do however find it puzzling that you would suggest that unarmed organizations are taking part in wars as combatants. Like who? The Culinary Union of Ohio Local 138? What are they doing? Flinging pancakes as invading troops pass by? If they are armed and organized . . . they are a military.

You also misread the part you bolded. Its stating that a militia and army volunteer corps is to be treated with all the rights and protections of a POW even though they are not part of the professional army. (fail)

You also seem to be struggling in processing the key difference between armed and unarmed forces. Armed forces have weapons, unarmed forces don't. Forces that don't have weapons (thus unarmed) are NOT armed forces (which kind of makes sense even on the surface right? I mean . . . think about it . . . "armed forces"???). If you don't have weapons you can't met the criteria of being a military. That's not a problem for Starfleet who is armed to the teeth in almost every episode.

If you don't recognize Starfleet as a military...
... it's because

1) "Armed forces" and "military" are not interchangeable terms and[/QUOTE]

Ummmm . . . another fail.

Go check your dictionaries because you obviously have not researched the 5 dictionaries I quoted previously in this thread that all included definitions of a military as an armed force. We established that definition before proving that Starfleet met the criteria for an armed force based on modern convention and legal precedence.

Here are some additional links for you to continue to ignore.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
2) The Federation is not known to be a signatory of the Geneva Conventions.
Hmmmm, why do you think that is? Is it because the Federation feels that the Geneva Convention unfairly restricts its ability to engage in what could be considered "war crimes"? Or maybe is it because the Federation is NOT REAL!?!? This is a striking statement from you which seems to strengthen the idea that you have trouble separating the real world you live in and a fantasy world you probably would prefer to live in.

But because Star Trek is fictional when we have discussions comparing and contrasting them to current society and modern conventions we use these conventions and lifestyle standards as the benchmarks to measure against and not the other way around.
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