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Old July 11 2013, 06:54 AM   #83
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Which is why I don't believe that Starfleet has principal responsibility for the Federation's ground wars (seeing how it is, you know Starfleet, not Dirtfleet).
Then how come Starfleet troops are the principal ground soldiers in DS9's battle with the Dominion?
They're not. They just get saddled with that duty at AR-558 because literally nobody else in the universe could be spared for that mission.
Oh they very much are Starfleet.

VARGAS: According to Starfleet regulations we're suppose to be rotated off the front lines after ninety days.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
That still wouldn't add up to 900 billion casualties unless the Federation has a population in the tens of trillions. This suggests the majority population of the Federation is under threat, and that seems incredibly unlikely.
Looking at the episode again, the 900 billion casualties was from a prolonged war. 90 planets at 10 billion deaths (or some combination) seem reasonable as war can cause direct death or death through infrastructure collapse like starvation and disease. So, it's likely.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Besides, this is the Jem'hadar we're talking about. They will take ANY excuse to slaughter their enemies face-to-face. They don't need to actually defeat your defenses to beam down to your planet and start causing trouble, and they don't always bother to try.
No, it's the Dominion which is directed by the Founders. The Jem'hedar aren't always going to be directed into ground combat.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
That would be inconsistent with the overall design of the Galaxy and Ambassador class starships which are considerably better armed than their smaller predecessors.
How are these ships better armed than their smaller predecessors during TNG? In the DS9 battles they do no additional damage than the other small ships. They might last longer due their size and bulk but there is no indication they were better armed.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
On the contrary, I think that Federation law doesn't actually establish a formal military organization and instead includes provisions to commandeer or conscript any agency, organization or individual within the Federation who has the equipment and capabilities they need.
Or Starfleet's military,science and exploration programs changed in priority as the need arises over the 100+ years of it's existence.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It also needs to be remembered that the Dominion War is hardly typical of an armed conflict in terms of galactic affairs;
Well, it seemed pretty typical when you compare it to the brief Klingon-Cardassian War or possibly even the further back Federation-Klingon War in "Errand of Mercy". Fleets of ships deciding the fate of the warring nations.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
after all, prior to DS9 the Battle of Wolf 359 seemed like a really huge deal to everyone and the Cardassian Border Wars were a fairly hot topic.
Wouldn't it be a huge deal to the TNG Starfleet which at that time was squarely NOT a military? Wolf 359 and the Cardassian conflict would've been a strain on a service that was not geared for combat.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Starfleet IS a military organization in the Yesterday's Enterprise alternate timeline, however -- this after more than 20 years of war with the Klingons -- and had the Dominion War dragged on another five or ten years the same probably would have happened in that case too. In both cases, it's mainly because the Federation never needed to formalize that status before; they had never been in a situation where they actually needed to fight a large multi-front war against a massive and powerful adversary.
They were in that situation in TOS when they started to fight the Klingons.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Theoretically that would also be the case in "Into Darkness" and Admiral Marcus is the kind of person who would have driven the military conversion had it been necessary.
Well we do know that the two universes aren't alike. How the JJVerse Starfleet progresses doesn't bear on the TOS universe.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
But it WASN'T necessary. The Klingons and the Federation were in open warfare less than two days before the Organians cried foul and evidently never came to blows again before Praxis exploded. Obviously an undeclared cold war had been going on in the mean time, but that would still leave Starfleet in the position of an undeclared quasi-military who spends more time sneaking around monitoring them than actually shooting at them.
Even in cold wars you'd get a pretty good military build up. There wasn't any indication that either side reduced their wartime forces after the Organian treaty. The only time we hear of the Starfleet military standing down is in the events of "The Undiscovered Country".

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Yes, I realize that, but too much of Star Trek has depended on that underlying subtext that we're stuck with it, especially now that JJ Abrams has elected not to change it.
Not really. JJ Abrams universe is not the same as TOS or the TOS Movies. One Starfleet went military and other didn't (and that works fine in-universe as the simplest explanation.)
I'm not so sure, actually. Starfleet's depiction in both movies is at least as militaristic as it is in TOS -- more so, IMO, for a number of reasons -- but is still DESCRIBED as being non-military by two different characters in STID.
I think when you pointed out that JJVerse Scotty said it wasn't a military that pretty much cemented a *different* path that was taken. TOS Scotty had no problems dropping a few photon torpedoes in the name of diplomacy or General 24'ing a planet in "A Taste of Armageddon" and he had no qualms in facing down Klingons in person or in space combat. JJVerse Scotty doesn't appear to have that same attitude.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It's not actually that hard to reconcile since Starfleet's non-military mission is sufficiently emphasized that they can get away with avoiding that classification. Actually, the only reason to assume it MUST be a military organization is the desire to cast the best possible light on the nature of military organizations, and that's just not something that would jibe very well with the fictional history of United Earth.
Actually the only reason to believe Starfleet was a military in TOS/TOS Movies was because the characters said so and behaved as such. Seems simple enough
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