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Old July 11 2013, 05:03 AM   #169
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Timo wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
So several questions spring to mind:

1. At the smaller scale, couldn't the Romulans fire at these Starfleet outposts from their own planet? The Plasma weapon had a very long range.
Good point - but perhaps the ship was necessary for finding out where the outposts are in the first place. If the fortresses are part of a natural asteroid belt, they were probably built with stealth as a secondary if not a primary concern. Randomly shooting at ten thousand asteroids might be beyond the capabilities of the Romulans.
If that's the case, couldn't the Romulans observe the construction of the asteroids as the Starfleet ships coming over to build them probably would not be stealthy. And at that scale, it's like watching what's going on in your own backyard. Plus with 100 years of time on their hands you would think that the Romulans had plenty of time to identify and target the outposts?

Timo wrote: View Post
2. or build a set of counter outposts on their side and wouldn't they show up on the map?
Again part of a belt, and thus only the Romulans would know which of the asteroids are Romulan bases.
Wouldn't also the same apply here? At ranges of 1/2 or less of an AU it would be trivial for Starfleet to observe any ships going out to build outposts on the other side of the zone.

Timo wrote: View Post
(If we drop the single-system model, the question "Where is Remus" still applies, but the scale of the map might mean it's omitted - or then it's represented by that red ring around the ROMULUS dot.)
I tried searching on more info about Remus but there doesn't seem to be much out there except for Nemesis. I guess I'll take a look to see if there is anything that might be of use.

Timo wrote: View Post
If the Romulans have been confined to this single star system (or actually just its inner parts) for a century, they might have abandoned spaceflight altogether. Save for their secret projects, conducted literally under wraps, that is.
If they did, what campaigns did the Romulan commander and his buddy go on? He seems to be a seasoned starship commander.

Timo wrote: View Post
5. Wouldn't the "stars of home" look the same on the other side of the neutral zone to the Romulan Commander if the fight took place in their own star system?
If spaceflight indeed is something these folks no longer do, then stars-as-seen-from-space vs. stars-as-seen-from-Romulus would be very different things to them... Not in terms of position, but of appearance.
I'm not following. I can understand if the stars visible from the Romulus are different than from a outpost light years away. I'm having trouble seeing how it would be different while a few AU away or just stuck on their home planet.

Timo wrote: View Post
6. Couldn't Starfleet then start shooting at the Romulan homeworld from their outposts as a response since they're at a close enough range.
Definitely. And I guess that would always have been an option even in the "big RSE" model. We see the outposts rather sparsely positioned, and no matter what the scale of this map, this very probably indicates that each outpost has weapons with enough range to close the gap between the outposts. Which gives them enough range to hit the Romulus dot, too, more or less.
Well, if the scale went up enough, the outposts couldn't reach Romulus. On the "1 system" model, the range of the outposts to the Romulus homeworld would be 2 AU or so and range wouldn't be an issue. But if the RNZ was light years across (the big RSE model) then suddenly the outposts would be out of range to hit Romulus.


Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
1. At the smaller scale, couldn't the Romulans fire at these Starfleet outposts from their own planet? The Plasma weapon had a very long range.
Actually they made a pretty big deal about the plasma weapon having a natural range limit; indeed, the Enterprise uses this to their advantage by firing at the Romulans from outside their firing range (and Stiles says "A phaser hit at this range would be the wildest stroke of luck!")
Right, but the range limit appears to be very far. Put it this way, the Enterprise runs away at emergency warp for 2m30s before the plasma weapon runs out of power. That's 4 squares of travel distance based on the distance the Enterprise travels at warp towards Outpost 4.* It's only 2 spaces away for the Romulans to fire on the Outposts if they did it from their side of the zone and well within their range limit.

*It could be much more than 4 squares as I was looking at it from above and didn't account for traveling on the altitude axis.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It's implied to have the ability to travel at FTL velocities, but the warp speeds shown in this episode are depicted as being (as is often the case in TOS) remarkably slow, not necessarily even FTL. As we've seen, this only ever happens deep within planetary systems well within the range of a star's gravity well.
There is a star in the square that the Enterprise/Romulan are in when they encounter the comet. That could be the source of the comet's tail and also the gravity well/warp slow down.


Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Possibly, but at that range not enough to tell more than indistinct shapes and power emanations. Enough to make a rough guess, but little more.
It's only a few AU if we're talking the "single star model" so I would think their sensor technology should be much better than that.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
5. Wouldn't the "stars of home" look the same on the other side of the neutral zone to the Romulan Commander if the fight took place in their own star system?
We've been assuming that the Bird of Prey's mission was to test Federation defenses by attacking those outposts with its new weapon. But we don't really know that for sure, do we? Fuel was definitely an issue at this point, but we also don't know the bird of prey's actual flight range; Hansen did, after all, mention that the Romulans had destroyed outposts Two, Three and Eight.
That's interesting as Outpost 8 would be way at the top. Was there a second Romulan ship involved?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The first are understandable. Outpost two spotted the BoP on the way back through the neutral zone and immediately radioed its neighbors for confirmation. The Bird of Prey destroyed outpost three with a single shot, but outpost four survived long enough to get off a message to the Enterprise.
I think it's a bit more muddled than that. Enterprise lost contact with Outpost 2, then an hour later Outpost 3 went silent. According to the dialogue, 2 went silent first. But somewhere along the line, Hansen on Outpost 4 found out that 8 also was destroyed. There doesn't seem to be enough time for that Romulan ship to get up to blast 8 after getting 2 and 3 before getting 4. But 8 couldn't have been the first one to get destroyed because 2 is the first one we're told that they lost contact with.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
That, finally, would explain why the Romulan Commander in "The Enterprise Incident" seems to know so much about the Enterprise and its crew. They've been infiltrating the Federation for years already and Starfleet was none the wiser until one of their spy ships got shot down trying to cross back into the zone.
A few episodes earlier in "The Deadly Years" we know the Romulans had broken "Code 2" communications. It wouldn't be hard to imagine that they got their intel on the Enterprise and Kirk from that episode. The spying of course still could happen but that would probably come from the merchant ships crossing the zone to pick Romulan Ale

Interestingly enough, the Romulans contact the Enterprise with a "Class 2" communication (is that same as "Code 2"?) in "The Enterprise Incident".

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Here's a thought: the Centurion says to his commander "We've seen a hundred campaigns together and still I do not understand you!" For all we know, this isn't the first time this particular commander -- or even this particular ship -- has crossed the neutral zone. It's merely the first time they've ever gotten caught.
I'm thinking that campaigns equal wars of some kind. If he said "sorties" or "missions" perhaps but the dialogue made this something bigger (not smaller), IMHO.

I still think that the "small RSE/Single system RSE" has too many problems to be viable. If we expand out the evidence to later TOS episodes it becomes even more problematic.

Last edited by blssdwlf; July 11 2013 at 06:56 AM.
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