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Old July 11 2013, 04:09 AM   #82
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Which is why I don't believe that Starfleet has principal responsibility for the Federation's ground wars (seeing how it is, you know Starfleet, not Dirtfleet).
Then how come Starfleet troops are the principal ground soldiers in DS9's battle with the Dominion?
They're not. They just get saddled with that duty at AR-558 because literally nobody else in the universe could be spared for that mission.

Why not? Lose the defending space fleet and your planets are open to attack. The Dominion could easily wipe out a few planets to make an example to the rest of the subjugated worlds to not make any trouble.
That still wouldn't add up to 900 billion casualties unless the Federation has a population in the tens of trillions. This suggests the majority population of the Federation is under threat, and that seems incredibly unlikely.

Besides, this is the Jem'hadar we're talking about. They will take ANY excuse to slaughter their enemies face-to-face. They don't need to actually defeat your defenses to beam down to your planet and start causing trouble, and they don't always bother to try.

I think that's an interesting shift - to bring in their "legal status". I'd suggest then that legally Starfleet in TOS up till "The Undiscovered Country" was their formal military that happens to have exploration and science programs. At the conclusion of the new treaty, the "mothballed Starfleet" would have been the military aspect and the remaining programs became the Starfleet as seen in TNG.
That would be inconsistent with the overall design of the Galaxy and Ambassador class starships which are considerably better armed than their smaller predecessors.

On the contrary, I think that Federation law doesn't actually establish a formal military organization and instead includes provisions to commandeer or conscript any agency, organization or individual within the Federation who has the equipment and capabilities they need.

It also needs to be remembered that the Dominion War is hardly typical of an armed conflict in terms of galactic affairs; after all, prior to DS9 the Battle of Wolf 359 seemed like a really huge deal to everyone and the Cardassian Border Wars were a fairly hot topic. Starfleet IS a military organization in the Yesterday's Enterprise alternate timeline, however -- this after more than 20 years of war with the Klingons -- and had the Dominion War dragged on another five or ten years the same probably would have happened in that case too. In both cases, it's mainly because the Federation never needed to formalize that status before; they had never been in a situation where they actually needed to fight a large multi-front war against a massive and powerful adversary.

They were at war for 20 years in "Yesterday's Enterprise". In "The Undiscovered Country", Starfleet was protecting the Federation against "almost 70 years of unremitting hostility" from the Klingons. There's plenty of room for the TOS Starfleet to be the military waiting for a war with the Klingons.
Theoretically that would also be the case in "Into Darkness" and Admiral Marcus is the kind of person who would have driven the military conversion had it been necessary.

But it WASN'T necessary. The Klingons and the Federation were in open warfare less than two days before the Organians cried foul and evidently never came to blows again before Praxis exploded. Obviously an undeclared cold war had been going on in the mean time, but that would still leave Starfleet in the position of an undeclared quasi-military who spends more time sneaking around monitoring them than actually shooting at them.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Darkwing wrote: View Post
Stupid writers, nothing more. Kirk's Starfleet was explicitly the military. Then Roddenberry changed his mind, and Picard spewed that drivel, and we've been stuck with that nonsense ever since.
Yes, I realize that, but too much of Star Trek has depended on that underlying subtext that we're stuck with it, especially now that JJ Abrams has elected not to change it.
Not really. JJ Abrams universe is not the same as TOS or the TOS Movies. One Starfleet went military and other didn't (and that works fine in-universe as the simplest explanation.)
I'm not so sure, actually. Starfleet's depiction in both movies is at least as militaristic as it is in TOS -- more so, IMO, for a number of reasons -- but is still DESCRIBED as being non-military by two different characters in STID.

It's not actually that hard to reconcile since Starfleet's non-military mission is sufficiently emphasized that they can get away with avoiding that classification. Actually, the only reason to assume it MUST be a military organization is the desire to cast the best possible light on the nature of military organizations, and that's just not something that would jibe very well with the fictional history of United Earth.
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