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Old July 11 2013, 04:02 AM   #81
Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Which is why I don't believe that Starfleet has principal responsibility for the Federation's ground wars (seeing how it is, you know Starfleet, not Dirtfleet).
Then how come Starfleet troops are the principal ground soldiers in DS9's battle with the Dominion? And also the same troops that secure Earth in "Paradise Lost"?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Also, I'm thinking the definition of "war" in the 23rd century may also be somewhat different than the rest of us expect. For example, it seems to be the case that flying around and blowing up other people's space ships is NOT generally considered an act of war (Hence Archer does this with surprising regularity without causing a diplomatic incident).
It would also depend on the time period and the nation states involved as well. A blanket statement is overly broad.

In Kirk's time there were occasions that blowing up a star ship could either start or prevent a war.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Bashir's think tank apparently states that the Federation stands to loose up to a trillion lives if they aren't victorious over the Dominion. A war fought primarily in space wouldn't have those kinds of stakes;
Why not? Lose the defending space fleet and your planets are open to attack. The Dominion could easily wipe out a few planets to make an example to the rest of the subjugated worlds to not make any trouble.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
How does that description not describe a military if it conducts war?
Because in the whole of American history, no one has ever said of the U.S. Navy "Our purpose is peaceful exploration,"
"On August 18, 1838, six United States Navy ships left Norfolk, Virginia on an expedition to the South Pacific.
Being a peaceful expedition of discovery, the ships were stripped of heavy armament and its space was given over to scientific exploration. "

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
and no captain of CVN-65 was ever heard using terms similar to "The Navy is not a military organization, its purpose is exploration."
And I accept Picard's comment as it was applicable to his time (TNG) in that particular version of Starfleet.

Just like I accept the evidence that TOS/TOS Movie Starfleet was a military at that time in the past.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
But really, how hard is it to consider that Starfleet during it's hundred plus years of operation be able to change as necessary from a military to a non-military organization as the need arises?
That's just it: since neither their mission role nor their command structure would actually be affected, the change is totally unnecessary. There's nothing in Federation law that says "the organization that participates in war" HAS to be a military organization.
However, that's not how Starfleet is described in TOS and TOS Movies. We do have people like Carol and David Marcus calling Starfleet, "the military" and the Organians marking them as Military Forces.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Starfleet probably never became a formal military organization because they were able to fulfill that role without actually changing their legal status.
I think that's an interesting shift - to bring in their "legal status". I'd suggest then that legally Starfleet in TOS up till "The Undiscovered Country" was their formal military that happens to have exploration and science programs. At the conclusion of the new treaty, the "mothballed Starfleet" would have been the military aspect and the remaining programs became the Starfleet as seen in TNG.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
We know for a fact that if the Federation got desperate enough they WOULD change it, and Starfleet would look very different afterwards (as we see in "Yesterday's Enterprise"). But even in the Dominion War, the Federation's simply never been that desperate.
They were at war for 20 years in "Yesterday's Enterprise". In "The Undiscovered Country", Starfleet was protecting the Federation against "almost 70 years of unremitting hostility" from the Klingons. There's plenty of room for the TOS Starfleet to be the military waiting for a war with the Klingons.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Darkwing wrote: View Post
Stupid writers, nothing more. Kirk's Starfleet was explicitly the military. Then Roddenberry changed his mind, and Picard spewed that drivel, and we've been stuck with that nonsense ever since.
Yes, I realize that, but too much of Star Trek has depended on that underlying subtext that we're stuck with it, especially now that JJ Abrams has elected not to change it.
Not really. JJ Abrams universe is not the same as TOS or the TOS Movies. One Starfleet went military and other didn't (and that works fine in-universe as the simplest explanation.)
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