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Old July 9 2013, 01:31 AM   #76
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Yes. And a fictional non-entity called him a "baby killer" without being refuted.

Does the statement stand? Why or why not?
Without knowing that soldier's full history I won't make that guess.
You don't have to guess. Argument from assertion is not evidence and neither is lack of refutation.
I do have to guess. You only present two sentences about this soldier. With Star Trek we do have the episodes to draw from which tells us when Starfleet was and was not a Military. Just like when you say that he is a soldier.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Is still not a confirmation.
You say not a confirmation, Carol Marcus says Military = Starfleet.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Partially true: the submarine service records data collected by their sensors during normal operations. This is made available to civilian researchers IF AND WHEN the mission is concluded and declassified. Attack submarines are actually very poorly equipped for that type of data collection and most of that data is used in navigational studies in the absence of more detailed observations from specialized exploration vessels.
And what is the difference between the Defiant making their collected data available to Federation civilian researchers with classified access and/or military researchers in Starfleet?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
No, because Starfleet officers are not civilians, nor do
civilians make up the majority contingent of their crews. NOAA vessels include civilians among their research staff but are OPERATED by a uniformed service of the Federal Government.
David Marcus was a civilian that accompanied the scientific mission to Genesis on a Starfleet vessel. The Marcus' and their whole civilian science team were working on a classified project for Starfleet. Civilians working for Starfleet, the military, as the scientists referred to.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
In contrast with Starfleet, which is a research fleet that conducts war.
How does that description not describe a military if it conducts war?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Probably the same reason Ben Sisko acknowledges being the Emissary of the Prophets: it's a role he has taken and accepted due to circumstances beyond his control. Even so, Starfleet is hardly a branch of the Bajoran Priesthood.
So Starfleet drafted O'Brien and Nog like a military and they're serving as soldiers? Gotcha.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Why would anyone else need to?
Because if no one fights the invaders then the Federation falls. Are you arguing now that no military fought for the Federation and that they didn't contribute military forces along with the Klingons and Romulans?

Or that Sisko's plea with the Federation President that the Dominion doesn't discriminate between military and civilian targets makes no sense because there is no military?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
I'm being as accurate as I can be based on the information available. It's just that "a group of people who participate in a war" is not the same thing as "a military."
The Organians identified Kirk and the Enterprise as Military Forces. Carol Marcus identified Starfleet as The Military.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Ironically, this was VERY MUCH the case during the years in which naval forces were the foremost leaders in the exploration of the world's oceans;
Naval forces, huh? Military.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
privateers, mercenaries, rebel bands and wandering psychopaths were just as likely to end up on the firing line as career soldiers. Indeed, the army rank "Private" originates from the old English practice where a larger number of soldiers who signed on for battle were in fact "private soldiers" who showed up to fight purely because the Crown offered to pay them for their troubles; throughout the fifteenth, sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, the MAJORITY of soldiers found on Europe's battlefields were, in fact, mercenaries.
Which fought as "soldiers" in a "military".

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The nature of warfare and those who fight it has been in flux for centuries and new technologies are already threatening to unravel conventional notions of military vs. civilian targets. This for a planet like ours where we customarily go out of our way to define the difference. The Federation exists in a universe where many aggressive species make no such distinction or -- in the case of, for example, the Borg and the Dominion -- where such a distinction is logically impossible. There are advanced civilizations like the Organians, the Metrons, the Paxans, the Aldeans and even the Prophets that are fully capable of defending themselves against aggressors without having anything that even RESEMBLES a military organization. The Aldeans, in particular, can repel invading forces with the mere touch of a button, and Minosian weapon technology was so powerful their entire species was obliterated just for want of an "off" button.
Well, since the Federation isn't at that level, they still use a military to fight their wars.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Moreover, the Federation faces day-to-day threats from non-military sources: carnivorous space creatures with peculiar abilities, enigmatic alien robots with immense destructive power, natural disasters that can wipe out entire solar systems, sociopathic demigods with an axe to grind, temporal anomalies that screw up reality itself, and all kinds of other weirdness that could never reasonably be confused with "military" forces that nonetheless possess the ability to destroy entire worlds.
Which as others have pointed out are only part of the makeup of adversaries Starfleet might face. You forget the conventional military forces of the other star nations.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
I've said it before, and I'll say again now: when a hyper-intelligent thunderstorm sends an email threatening to blow away your capital city, you'd probably want to call NOAA, not the Navy.
No. You'd call the USAF's Cyber Command to put together a worm to disable the thunderstorm. Then the Army, Navy and National Guard to cordon off the waters and land that the thunderstorm threatens and help with the evacuation. NOAA will assist with forecasting where it might show up. And the USAF if it has to deliver a special nuke into the heart of the storm.

And only if all else fails, Jeff Goldblum to hack into the storm's network.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
And if you live in a country that is attacked by hyper-intelligent storm clouds slightly more often than it is by other people, the NOAA might as well BE the navy.
If NOAA was armed, I agree. Again, since it is not but the US Navy is, well I side with the Military.

But really, how hard is it to consider that Starfleet during it's hundred plus years of operation be able to change as necessary from a military to a non-military organization as the need arises?
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