View Single Post
Old July 8 2013, 08:53 PM   #275
Lieutenant Commander
KGator's Avatar
Location: Mentally? . . . that's debatable.
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post
Ummmm, the battle history of a military does not define whether they are a military or not.
Never said it did. I've said that their relative lack of specialty in combat training reflects the fact that they are not a military organization. And even Riker called combat proficiency a "minor province" in a commander's duties, something which Star Trek has been remarkably consistent about.

The US Coast Guard is tasked with defending US Soil in times of War.
So is the Chinese Coast Guard, despite the fact that it is not a military organization.

I realize that. And here's the thing YOU need to realize: any NON military organization can participate in a war.

That's not a misconception, that's the Posse Commititus act that explicitly prohibits them from doing so except under very specific circumstances. By contrast, some other countries -- France, for example -- have explicitly military organizations that operate in a domestic law enforcement agency.

Asking if Starfleet is a military organization is like asking if the LAPD is a Gendarme. When a police captain says "The LAPD is not a military organization," you don't point at the SWAT team and say "Yes you are!"

Why not? Militaries do that too.

If they are used for state defense against external threats (aka invading other countries or repelling said invasions) then they are by DEFINITION an armed force of the state (aka MILITARY FORCE).
Why? Non-militaries do that too.

Again, a government can have a military force do whatever it feels appropriate.
Yes, and governments are free to define whether the people it sends to do those tasks are civilian organizations, uniformed government agencies, or sanctioned military organizations. Some governments -- Japan, for example -- avoid using a formal military organization altogether for historical and political reasons; I suspect the Federation has a similar reason for downplaying Starfleet's defense role as being merely one of a list of emergencies they are trained to handle.
Somebody is in denial. The bottom line is that Starfleet is an armed force of the Federation and by definition they are a military. Nothing you can say (pulling vague facts about the Chinese Coast Guard or Japanese military) can change that. They fight the Federation's wars so they are UNDENIABLY a military organization.

I'm sorry that upsets you so and you feel like Picard lied to you on the show but . . . . that's just how it is.

As for your other comments.

Whether the Chinese Coast Guard is tasked with defending the coast against foreign forces is the call of the Chinese Government. They might reserve that role exclusively for their Navy. Who cares? I stated that Starfleet was most like the US Coast Guard in its multiple roles. I'm not really concerned with what the Nicaraguan Coast Guard does either (even if that turns out to be a fascinating comparison).

Look Eddie, I explained how it works between the National Guard and Active component troops. I carried live rounds in Operation Safe Skies . . . and guess what . . . the passengers were mostly US CITIZENS. Hmmmm . . . clearly you don't understand the difference between Federal and State control and the dual chain of command of the US National Guard. Read my paragraph again, I'm not wrong here. While the National Guard is part of the US Armed Forces they can bear arms against its citizens in a wide variety of circumstances. (Posse Commititus only applies to units activated under Federal Control)

LAPD is not a military organization. Starfleet is. LAPD doesn't get sent to Afghanistan for counterinsurgency, security or peace enforcement operations. But if they did . . . they WOULD BE MILITARY (see the definitions of military you constantly ignore).

Is your argument that militaries that conduct law enforcement activities cannot be considered militaries? Is your next tactic to declare that because Starfleet does law enforcement it cannot possibly be a military force (because we know it is as by definition they fight wars on behalf of the Federation --- MILITARY)

Japan's restrictions on its defense forces does not have anything to do with Starfleet. The Japanese SDF is a military force that is legally restricted in terms of size and offensive capabilities. I met some Japanese soldiers at White Sands Missile Range years ago. Trust me, you don't want to piss those guys off. I'm sure you telling them they weren't a real military wouldn't go over too well either.
KGator is offline   Reply With Quote