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Old July 8 2013, 09:05 PM   #272
Lieutenant Commander
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post
In World War 2 the US military was comprised of a lot of teachers, truck drivers, farmers, construction workers, etc, with basic military training who were quite destructive. The bottom line is whether a scientist/part-time soldier is shooting at you or a lifelong solder you are probably going to duck just the same. I'm sure a phaser fired from an armed scientists who knows Superstring theory hurts just as much as fired from a guy who only knows how to shoot the weapon he's holding.
And yet, the guys who only knows how to shoot the weapons they're holding are going to get their asses kicked by the guys who also spent five years learning parkour and jujitsu and training how to move and fight as a team over difficult terrain in low visibility, high-stress situations
Starfleet is in its element in space (most of the time) and tends to use science and engineering to solve its conflicts.

Their INFANTRY tactics, on the other hand, are laughable at best..
Ummmm, the battle history of a military does not define whether they are a military or not. How many wars have the militaries of Peru or the Philippines actually won? Does that mean we rename their armed forces to something else? The Federation has fought and won (or at least not lost) to the Klingons, Romulans, Dominion, etc, etc. So your point is moot. The US has the dominant military in the world today but that doesn't mean we can't get our arses handed to us in any individual battle or operation.

American Infantry and Armor at the beginning of WWII wasn't anything to write home about but they got better as the war went along (experience). US Artillery was the dominant combat arms component for the US in the war and had no equal. It was the branch most feared by our foes.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post
Starfleet is probably closest in comparison to the Coast Guard where armed combat against foreign militaries is just a single component of their overall role. However they are by definition a military/armed force of the United States.
And as has been said before, the coast guards of most nations are NOT military organizations and are legally classified as law enforcement agencies despite being fairly heavily armed.
The US Coast Guard is tasked with defending US Soil in times of War. I'm sure you can find information on the Role of the Coast Guard. Its one of the 5 Armed Services of the United States.

Here's something you need to realize. Any MILITARY can undertake police action. In many parts of the world a nation's military is tasked or often used to pacify its citizens or fill law enforcement roles. This also happens in the US. A common misconception is that the military cannot bear arms against US citizens without the declaration of martial law. However if National Guard forces are still under the control of the Governor (not federalized) they can easily be "deputized" before undertaking security or law enforcement missions (aka carry live rounds with clear rules of engagement). Federal forces on the otherhand are barred by law. That does not mean other countries follow our lead on this.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post
If a country fights its battles by arming all available milkmen and sending then on invasions of neighboring countries . . . . that's their military.
I offer a counter-proposal: this society only provides weapons to its milkmen because the high demand for milk means the milkmen can be everywhere all the time and it is therefore highly efficient to give them police powers (e.g. if you rob a convenience store, the local milkmen will quickly locate and arrest your ass). Because the milk trucks are also very robust and highly mobile, they may also double as a defense service if and when the country is invaded by foreigners.

The milkmen do not, however, become a military organization unless they are legally classified as the exclusive agency authorized to conduct war against the nation's enemies. This is such, because "military" or "armed forces" is legal concept as much as a linguistic one and has different implications in different languages (particularly latin and African languages the equivalent word refers almost exclusively to land armies, as it used to in English until recently). Not being an officially-sanctioned armed force would make them a "paramilitary" or "militia" force by modern conventions, which I think fits Starfleet just fine.
Again, I don't seem to be conveying this properly. If the milkmen only engage in law enforcement they are not military. If they are used for state defense against external threats (aka invading other countries or repelling said invasions) then they are by DEFINITION an armed force of the state (aka MILITARY FORCE).

If you have your milkmen act in the mission of state defense (or by definition has that as one of its purposes) it is now a military organization. If the Texas Highway Patrol is suddenly ordered to invade Mexico by the State it becomes a military organization. If the National Guard rounds up rioters in the street its a military organization performing law enforcement duties (because its also tasked with defending that same state from any invasion or invading any foreign state).

Again, a government can have a military force do whatever it feels appropriate. And any force that is armed and acts in the defense of the state (whether that be through offensive or defensive action) is a military.
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