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Old July 6 2013, 08:08 AM   #235
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Belz... wrote: View Post
So in other words it wasn't a strawman and they are actually discussing dismantling the fleet.
It WAS a strawman, because Catwright was OBJECTING to the dismantling of the fleet, which was never proposed in the first place.

That's how the strawman argument works. When someone comes up with an idea you don't like, you construct an absurd version of that idea that's much easier to protest and argue against THAT instead. That's what Cartwright was doing, specifically because he doesn't like Klingons and thinks the Federation ought to be kicking the shit out of them instead of trying to make peace.

More importantly, I BELIEVE Picard, because he is known to be truthful and sincere, and because he has been entrusted to command the most powerful starship in the Federation, a responsibility that implies a very high level of competence.
It's not a matter of believing the character's sincerity. People can be sincere and yet still wrong.
And yet a man who is highly competent AND sincere probably isn't wrong.

Cartwright was neither.

If Starfleet had OTHER founding principles, now is your chance to cite them.
I have done so already. We've mentioned the line from The Doomstay Machine...
... is not a reference to Starfleet's founding principles. For all you know, Decker's referencing one of Starfleet's general orders on the response to extraordinary natural disasters or artificial hazards.

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Obviously Starfleet is a military organisation.

Its organisational structure mimics (if not exactly copies) Earth military structures. It has
officers, enlisted people, uniforms, people say yes sir and no sir to each other
As monkey already pointed out, so do NOAA and the JMSDF.

and salute.
No they don't.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
And Starfleet got to that point through military tactics not using fancy science equipment.
Actually, reviewing the progress of DS9 it seems to me that Starfleet got their asses kicked almost every time they had to rely on military tactics alone. They were, for example, unable to hold DS9 from a Dominion attack, unable to get more than a single ship to DS9 in time to stop them opening the wormhole, unable to defend Chin'toka from the Breen. They were facing overwhelming losses in almost every battle, in some engagements loosing hundreds of ships.

But what about their victories?

At Chin'toka, they overcame the Cardassian defenses -- that were, incidentally, tearing them apart -- by locating the power source for the entire network and using a technobabble deflector pulse to trick the defense satellites into targeting it. Despite loosing DS9 at the outbreak of the war, they were able to stop the flow of Dominion reinforcements using self-replicating mines that they had only just invented a couple of days earlier (and when THAT stopped working, Sisko called in a favor from a group of incorporeal aliens that were living in the wormhole). When the Klingons were unable to take out the Monac Shipyard, Worf and Martok use a technobabble energy pulse to trigger a solar flare that destroys the whole thing. When the Breen rolled out a new energy dampening weapon, Starfleet quickly devised a technical countermeasure and fitted it on all of their new ships. The conclusion of the war was ultimately brought about by offering the cure to the female changeling, a cure which was obtained in the first place through a telepathic adventure by Doctor Bashir and Chief O'Brian.

Starfleet's battle record does not appear to contain a single victory that wasn't achieved through superior technology or ingenuity; even a hundred years earlier, we see Spock and McCoy hastily constructing a wake-homing sensor to shoot down Chang's ship instead of simply finding one in their arsenal that had been configured ahead of time. Starfleet relies so heavily on science that a galaxy class starship cannot shoot down a 40 year old Klingon bird of prey without using a technobabble energy pulse to first disable its shields.

The pattern I see is that Starfleet isn't being sent to defend the Federation because they're a strong military force. They're being sent to defend the Federation because they can use science to solve ANY problem, military or otherwise.
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Last edited by Crazy Eddie; July 6 2013 at 08:38 AM.
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