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Old July 5 2013, 09:27 PM   #37
Timewalker
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Re: Highest Ranking Woman?

Timo wrote: View Post
I. Rest. My. Case
As you well should, as you have not provided a shred of evidence to support your erroneous original claims or your later ones.

The evidence presented still lacks any phrase suggesting Lester wanted to be a starship captain originally, but was thwarted -or any phrase suggesting she hated Starfleet, for any reason.
Oh, FFS, I read that whole script, and Janice makes it plain that she wants the life of a starship commander! She doesn't say she wants Kirk's life; she wants a captain's life. If Kirk were to retire from being an active captain and teach at the Academy, would she have done what she did (stole his body) to have that life? I very much doubt it.

McGivers was an accessory to the attempted murder of her captain.
Yes. And in any other show, such a character would have come to a bitter end, justly punished for her impudence (typically by being hoist to her own petard, with the hands of the hero remaining clean). In "Space Seed", she triumphs, her cause justified, her status secured. Which is why she's not a particularly bad or repressive role model for her times, even though she is a criminal.

Who said anything about "his crew"? Heroes have opponents, who become free game by virtue of standing in the way of the hero. McGivers' opponent was Kirk, whom she defeated, without harming him in the end. Kirk's opponents varied.
I don't see McGivers as having triumphed. She had a choice of court-martial or exile. In neither case would she be free to resume her normal life.

McGivers betrayed her captain and fellow crewmembers. The only time Kirk did that was when he was afflicted by the effects of a transporter accident. It wasn't deliberate. All the rest of Kirk's opponents in the series' other episodes are irrelevant to this discussion. We're talking about 'Space Seed' here. And even though he recovered from what Khan did to him, he still could have died. She was an accomplice, thereby making her guilty. I see ZERO "role model" credibility there.

And keep in mind that she also turned around and betrayed Khan. Even if Khan forgave her, do you think the rest of his people would? History has shown that people tend not to trust traitors, no matter which side they betrayed.

I tend to get irritated at people who don't want to see any of the six to twelve sides of the coin even after they are rather trivially presented, is all. Narrow-mindedness in a debate about presenting characters in a narrow-minded way is something of a double irritant; the rest is just classic net debate hubris. But when that comes off as hostility, I have done something wrong, and I apologize - that wasn't quite my intention.
I get irritated at people who can't seem to recognize their own narrow-minded take on an issue.

Thank you for the apology; I appreciate it, because this is certainly not the first time you've taken this tone with me in discussions.

I can't think poorly of a female character I find vapid and easily swayed by the last charismatic male who looks at her? Whatever Palamas is, it's not professional.
I don't see why professionalism should rank particularly high in the evaluation of a Trek character. Kirk is at his moral best, not to mention at his most exciting, when he defies orders and uses his own judgement.

Lester was crazy; Palamas fell under the influence of a God. There's no room left there for the personality of the character to show through.
The thing is, Kirk has the experience and training to have earned the leeway to use his own judgment. Palamas doesn't. And even before they met Apollo, she simpers and wonders why she's there on the landing party... Duh - you're the anthropology officer! Myths are a part of studying anthropology (I know this because anthropology was my college major). Apollo is a mythic figure. Figure it out, woman!

Before she got mesmerized by Apollo's charisma, Palamas was just plain stupid.
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