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Old July 5 2013, 03:46 AM   #227
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Belz... wrote: View Post
Don't you know it's bad form to turn someone's arguments around rather than address it ?
Don't you know it's bad form for the pot to call the kettle black?

I don't care one way or another about the military status of Starfleet, but the evidence is that there is no other such organisation within the Federation...
Even assuming the Federation even NEEDS an official military organization -- an assumption that is far from justified -- your argument roughly boils down to "Starfleet is the closest thing we've seen to it."

As if "Starfleet is the closest thing we've seen to a military organization" was ever in dispute...

That you see this as some sort of dogma...
It's an attempt to handwave out of existence a stated fact that clashes with your personal preconceptions. Put simply, the main characters in TNG said "Starfleet is not a military organization," a sentiment which was recently echoed in STID. You, for whatever reason, found these references disturbing, and you are performing an impressive bit of mental gymnastics to circumvent these references altogether.

So you appear to be demonstrating a strong bias. I call it like I see it.

First, I don't know why you're trying to pit one against the other since they lived in different eras, and the statements we're talking about weren't uttered by Cartwright.
Cartwright: "I must protest! To offer Klingons safe haven within Federation space is suicide, Klingons would become the alien trash of the galaxy. And if we dismantle the fleet, we'll be defenseless before an aggressive species with a foothold on our territory. The opportunity here is to bring them to their knees. Then we'll be in a far better position to dictate terms."

The first officer was presenting a strawman argument in the form of a loaded question. Cartwright was the only one who suggested -- not ASKED -- that it was even a possibility. You may have also noticed the "offering Klingons safe haven" is likewise a strawman; nobody was proposing THAT either.

Second, they are both Starfleet officers, and I'd wager that the admiral has more experience and knowledge of the inner workings of Starfleet than a captain.
It's not his knowledge that's at issue here. A man who is literally just a couple of days away from committing high treason against his own government probably isn't in a very rational state of mind. If his rant against the Klingons is any indication, he's already coming unglued before the meeting even starts.

You simply _agree_ with Picard, which doesn't make him right.
More importantly, I BELIEVE Picard, because he is known to be truthful and sincere, and because he has been entrusted to command the most powerful starship in the Federation, a responsibility that implies a very high level of competence.

I don't believe Cartwright, because in addition to the obvious fact that "dismantle the fleet" is a strawman against disarmament, Cartwright turned out to be a treasonous backstabber directly responsible for a series of murders, mostly of his own people.

Basically, in a disagreement between "Decorated officer with impeccable reputation" and "Incompetent traitor" I feel more confident siding with the former, not the latter.

Third, Picard isn't implying that Starfleet's only founding principle was finding new life
If Starfleet had OTHER founding principles, now is your chance to cite them.
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