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Old July 4 2013, 09:49 PM   #33
Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady
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Re: Highest Ranking Woman?

Timo wrote: View Post
Certainly there was no suggestion that Janice Lester would have wanted to become a starship skipper, so it's quite convoluted to think that the line would refer to the putative obstacles to such a desire.
Except she stated she wanted to be a starship captain, was angry at Starfleet for not allowing women to be captains (if this was only her perception and there really was at least one female captain, surely the other characters would have pointed that out), and at the end, sobbed, "Now I'll never be the Captain...". That suggests to me that she did, in fact, want to be a starship Captain.

In turn, while the description of McGivers may have been conservative rather than progressive in the 1960s, insisting that it still remains conservative is, uh, rather conservative. McGivers was the ultimate Mary Sue: she wrapped two dominating men around her little finger, got to do a little hurt/comfort and rescue fantasy stuff with both in turn, and got exactly what she wanted in the end. This is HBO stuff from today's viewpoint...

Eventually, McGivers got to be the First Lady of an entire planet. If we don't accept T'Pau as the Space Pope, then McGivers is actually our highest-ranking female character!

Timo Saloniemi
Um, yeah. "First Lady" on a dying planet, among a group of people who ALL considered her to be physically and mentally inferior. Yes, I know Khan referred to her as "superior"... but I interpret that to mean he considered her to be superior among the lesser Enterprise females - in that she was the only one "brave" enough to join him. I don't believe for a second he meant she was in any way equal to him and his people.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post

She didn't know there would be a fight. Logically, she was there to officiate a wedding.

Conventional fanfic and even pro novelists have taken the approach that T'Pau is Sarek's mother, Spock's grandmother, and Amanda's mother-in-law (I recommend you read Diane Duane's excellent Spock's World).
In current novel continuity, Sarek's mother is named T'Rama. T'Pau is sort of a great-aunt.
I don't read the current novels, so have no idea who or what you're referring to. Titles, so I can look it up next time I'm in a bookstore?

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
TOS also frequently had women who became infatuated with men and subsequently betrayed everybody...
...But themselves. In essence, these "frequent" cases (care to name a second one?) were downright Nietzschean in their unadulterated devotion to themselves. Surely the very definition of a "strong" character?

Timo Saloniemi
As has been said, the big example of a woman who betrayed the Enterprise is Marla McGivers. She deserved prison.

Lt. Carolyn Palamas went pretty far astray with Apollo and then came back to her senses just in time.

Yeoman Teresa Ross never waivered from her duty or her loyalty, despite the immense, macho sex appeal of General Trelane. Ross was a tower of strength.
How could anyone consider that Teresa Ross betrayed the ship? All she did was dance. You might as well say Uhura betrayed the ship because Trelane zapped the knowledge into her of how to play the harpsichord. Sure, she enjoyed it. But when the dance was done, she was all business again.

Timo wrote: View Post
As has been said, the big example of a woman who betrayed the Enterprise is Marla McGivers. She deserved prison.
And this makes her a bad role model, why? She's a strong character who gets what she wants, regardless of which side she plays. (Remarkably, nobody got hurt in the episode where she was a leading adversary, as opposed to virtually every other example of human treachery.)
Kirk nearly died! Marla was an accessory to attempted murder, and you don't think that would make her a bad role model? The fact that she saved him at the last minute doesn't negate the fact that she helped Khan in the first place.

Lt. Carolyn Palamas went pretty far astray with Apollo and then came back to her senses just in time.
Given that she was under truly divine influence, she can hardly be considered any worse than the barbaric Kirk we witness in, say, "Day of the Dove". Both are appropriate examples of how people of TOS do not want to behave.
Palamas was not under the influence of anything but her own hormones, a pretty face and body (Apollo's), and a mind full of cornflakes (as in stupidity).
"Let's give it to Riker. He'll eat anything!"

For some great Original Series fanfic, check out the Valjiir Continuum!
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