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Old July 4 2013, 07:41 PM   #54
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Kirk, McCoy, Garth of Izar, David Marcus and Carol Marcus and the Military Aide and C in C. That would be 7 people during the TOS thru TOS Movie time period.
Your count's a little off there. McCoy never suggests Starfleet's a military either; the closest he comes to that is suggesting Kirk is "being a soldier so often" he forgets how to be a diplomat,
The implication is there by indicating Kirk's role as a "soldier"
"My role as a soldier" doesn't refer to Starfleet as a military organization. Gang bangers refer to themselves as soldiers too, that doesn't mean the Gangsta Disciples are part of the National Guard.

More to the point, Kirk ALSO has a role as a diplomat and has acted in that capacity half a dozen times. For the same reasons, he isn't literally a diplomat either.

No, Kirk outright said his primary role is being a "soldier, not a diplomat."
And unless Kirk joined the infantry between commercial breaks, he isn't talking about his "role" in any organization.

Fair enough. At that time they were preparing for war as Leighton (or Starfleet under normal circumstances) already had a stockpile of armaments for an army available in the prior episode. But that does bring up the question, during the duration of the Dominion War, was Starfleet a military?
I'd like to think they were placed under a wartime authority (like the Federation Security Council or something), but I doubt it. Especially considering that in "One Little Ship" we see the Defiant -- of all ships! -- being sent on a scientific expedition.

Though once again, given the weird nature of the universe in which Star Trek takes place, I'm not sure it would even make a difference.

I don't think so.

The TOS fleet had direct control of the Federation government?
The TOS fleet maintained martial law on Earth and surrounding Federation colonies?
The TOS fleet reserved the right to unilaterally overrule any decision or policy of the civilian government in the name of strategic readiness and/or national security?
The TOS fleet routinely ordered summary executions for officers who weren't sufficiently loyal to the Admiral?
The TOS fleet placed the strength of arms and wartime readiness as priority over all other considerations including but not limited to civil liberties and personal freedoms?

And this just from what Leyton was PLANNING. The eventualities of a military junta necessarily mean he would have had to resort to blanket global surveillance, arresting people without trial on charges of sedition, total control of the press and all communications media, total control of civilian movement, direct control of industries and manufacturing bases, and ultimately, conscription of able-bodied civilians to shore up Starfleet's numbers in order to maintain order back home AND fight the Dominion at the same time.

So when I say "Leyton's militarized Starfleet would make the TOS fleet look like a girl scout troop," you need to get my full meaning. The military prioritizes battle readiness and defense to the exclusion of all other concerns, which is the main reason why free societies place VERY elaborate civilian controls on their military apparatus. Starfleet has no such controls other than the prime directive; it NEEDS no such controls because combat readiness and defense are far from its primary concerns. The moment Leyton sought to change that, the Federation found itself with a serious problem.

That's interesting. What four things did he say were ridiculous?
"Scientists have always been pawns to the military."

1) It's a personal outlook that simply reflects David's hatred of the concept of "the military." Scientists have often voluntarily aided the military to develop new weapon systems, but just as often scientists use the military as a source of funding for their pet projects. Almost never do scientists become unwilling participants in military planning... except, of course, in military dictatorships.

2) Implying Starfleet is the military

3) Implying the Genesis Project is being used as a pawn to Starflelet

4) Even if any of the above were true, implying that Starfleet has a militaristic objective in mind for Genesis.

Carol has about five seconds to comment in what is already a heated argument and mainly focuses on the last two points: SHE thinks this has to be some kind of huge misunderstanding, while David thinks it's a big shadowy conspiracy by the evil military.

David's dialogue expressed his distrust of Starfleet and it misusing it as a weapon.
Actually it reflects his mistrust of KIRK, which is -- if you think about it -- more than likely the nature of his mistrust of Starfleet. That David thinks Kirk is "exactly the kind of man" who would do what he fears says as much: Kirk is the only Starfleet officer he's ever known other than Chekov and Terrell.

David Marcus called Starfleet and/or representatives of Starfleet, "Military", twice. Once to Carol and once to Chekov. Neither time was his claim refuted.
The first time nobody was listening to him; Carol patently ignored him and talked OVER him.

And again, David hardly has the corner on knowing what he's talking about; the most ironic of those is "Don't have kittens, Genesis is going to work!"

Kirk and McCoy both said that Kirk was a "soldier". Garth of Izar called Kirk a "Military Commander"
In hindsight, his psychotic episode and attempted genocide and the Antosians probably generated a memorandum to all Starfleet commanders to cease and desist referring to themselves as "military commanders."

The C in C of Starfleet spells out that Starfleet has "exploration and scientific programs" which point to a period of time that "exploration and science" wasn't the only things Starfleet did.
It's never the ONLY thing Starfleet does. But it is by far the most prevalent. War has a way of changing everyone's priorities substantially, but war is an EMERGENCY, one of many such emergencies Starfleet is designed to cope with.

I'm sure that after the war, Starfleet reverted back to it's peace-time role of explorers and peace-keepers.
Given the events in "One little ship" it seems they never actually gave it up.
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