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Old July 4 2013, 07:34 AM   #52
Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Kirk, McCoy, Garth of Izar, David Marcus and Carol Marcus and the Military Aide and C in C. That would be 7 people during the TOS thru TOS Movie time period.
Your count's a little off there. McCoy never suggests Starfleet's a military either; the closest he comes to that is suggesting Kirk is "being a soldier so often" he forgets how to be a diplomat,
The implication is there by indicating Kirk's role as a "soldier". Still more than the 2 you were thinking of though.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
and Kirk makes a similar statement to the Organians.
No, Kirk outright said his primary role is being a "soldier, not a diplomat." He was pretty explicit there.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Sisko's remark occurs well after TOS so it's possible during DS9's war that Starfleet went Military for the duration of combat.
Or that it was about to GO military in the process of overthrowing the President. It would be extraordinarily difficult to reconcile an organization whose founding purpose is claimed to be the peaceful exploration of space and contact with other races suddenly taking control of the government purely by force of arms. That type of government could only be ruled with an iron fist, and Leyton would have to organize (indeed, was in the process of organizing) a heavily entrenched and extremely unpleasant junta in order to remain in power for any amount of time.
Fair enough. At that time they were preparing for war as Leighton (or Starfleet under normal circumstances) already had a stockpile of armaments for an army available in the prior episode. But that does bring up the question, during the duration of the Dominion War, was Starfleet a military?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Leyton's Starfleet would make the TOS fleet look like a girl scout troop. It would be totally unlike anything we've ever seen before on Star Trek. It would also, at that point, finally be a military.
I don't think so. Instead, I'd argue that the TOS fleet was far more militarized and armed unlike any other Trek fleet afterwards. TOS was on a sustained war footing with the Klingons and had military forces engaging in combat. The Organians stopped it and interestingly, the Enterprise and Kirk and Spock were also considered "military forces" by the Organians.
AYELBORNE: It is no trick, Commander. We have simply put an end to your war. All your military forces, wherever they are, are now completely paralysed.
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
In a verbal argument where a man says four ridiculous things one after another, it's not always worth it to refute all four of them separately. Carol simply says "You're misinterpreting this."
That's interesting. What four things did he say were ridiculous? Carol was also explicit in refuting the intended use of the Genesis device by Starfleet which does not refute Starfleet being a military.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It's sort of like how David suggests that an "overgrown boyscout" like Kirk is exactly the kind of man who would want to convert Genesis into a weapon of mass destruction and Carol replies "Kirk was never a boyscout."
David's dialogue expressed his distrust of Starfleet and it misusing it as a weapon.
DAVID: Every time we have dealings with Starfleet, I get nervous. ...We are dealing with something that could be perverted into a dreadful weapon. Remember that overgrown Boy Scout you used to hang around with? That's exactly the kind of man...
CAROL: Listen, kiddo, Jim Kirk was many things, but he was never a Boy Scout!
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
What IS definitive is that Starfleet has been explicitly a Military organization during TOS
No, Starfleet was never called a military ORGANIZATION by anyone but David Marcus. Kirk calls himself "a soldier" by analogy even when he obviously isn't... and that's about it.
David Marcus called Starfleet and/or representatives of Starfleet, "Military", twice. Once to Carol and once to Chekov. Neither time was his claim refuted. Kirk and McCoy both said that Kirk was a "soldier". Garth of Izar called Kirk a "Military Commander". The C in C of Starfleet spells out that Starfleet has "exploration and scientific programs" which point to a period of time that "exploration and science" wasn't the only things Starfleet did. The Organians targeted all the military forces of the Federation and Klingons which included Kirk, Spock and the Enterprise.

Like I said before, TNG and it's related series appear to have a non-Military Starfleet. TOS and TOS Movies on the other hand had a Military Starfleet. DS9 is up for grabs but since they fought a long war it's likely Starfleet personnel had to go military for some of the time.

For instance, in "Empok Nor", O'Brien was once a soldier in an earlier conflict. (He was the Tactical Officer on the Rutledge at that time).
GARAK: This is maddening. Asking a Ferengi to play a Cardassian game is like asking a Klingon to chew with his mouth closed. Kotra is not about regrouping or hoarding assets. It's about bold strategy and decisive action. Chief, would you like to take on the winner? I'd love to play Kotra against the hero of Setlik Three.
O'BRIEN: What is that supposed to mean?
GARAK: Oh, we all know your distinguished war record. How you led two dozen men against the Barrica encampment and took out an entire regiment of Cardassians. If you play Kotra with half that brazenness, we'd have quite a match.
O'BRIEN: I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.
O'BRIEN: That doesn't mean I like thinking about what happened then. I was a soldier, Nog. Sometimes soldiers have to kill.
GARAK: Come now, Chief, don't be so modest. You did a lot of killing.

And Nog (and O'Brien) in "Favor the Bold" appears to think he's a soldier.
NOG: I've learned a lot from you and not just about engineering. You've shown me what it takes to be a good soldier.
O'BRIEN: Don't let that uniform go to your head. You've got a lot to learn yet. And you will. Congratulations, Ensign. Wear it with pride.

and again in "Valiant":
NOG: You don't understand because you've never put on one of these uniforms. You don't know anything about sacrifice or honour or duty or any of the things that make up a soldier's life. I'm part of something larger than myself. All you care about is you.
And in "Waltz", Sisko calls himself a soldier along with Dukat.
SISKO: There's no reason to get upset. We're just talking. Two old soldiers talking around a campfire.
And later on Sisko is explicitly leading his soldiers in "Seige of AR-558"
SISKO: Now you listen to me, Quark, because I'm only going to say this one time. I care about Nog and every soldier under my command. Understood? Every single one.

I'm sure that after the war, Starfleet reverted back to it's peace-time role of explorers and peace-keepers.
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