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Old July 4 2013, 04:34 AM   #51
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Kirk, McCoy, Garth of Izar, David Marcus and Carol Marcus and the Military Aide and C in C. That would be 7 people during the TOS thru TOS Movie time period.
Your count's a little off there. McCoy never suggests Starfleet's a military either; the closest he comes to that is suggesting Kirk is "being a soldier so often" he forgets how to be a diplomat, and Kirk makes a similar statement to the Organians. The fact that Kirk is actually NEITHER of those things and wouldn't be even under ideal circumstances indicates that neither of them are speaking literally.

Sisko's remark occurs well after TOS so it's possible during DS9's war that Starfleet went Military for the duration of combat.
Or that it was about to GO military in the process of overthrowing the President. It would be extraordinarily difficult to reconcile an organization whose founding purpose is claimed to be the peaceful exploration of space and contact with other races suddenly taking control of the government purely by force of arms. That type of government could only be ruled with an iron fist, and Leyton would have to organize (indeed, was in the process of organizing) a heavily entrenched and extremely unpleasant junta in order to remain in power for any amount of time.

Leyton's Starfleet would make the TOS fleet look like a girl scout troop. It would be totally unlike anything we've ever seen before on Star Trek. It would also, at that point, finally be a military.

For TOS, Spock's comment about 70 years of unremitting hostility with the Klingons could indicate that Starfleet had been Military...
No, it implies the Federation had been guarding the neutral zone for 70 years and preventing Klingon ships (military OR civilian) from crossing. That's the animus behind Cartwright's "safe haven" remark: what Spock is basically describing is a peaceful disposition between the two with an open border and normalized trade relations with the Federation. Cartwright believes that the open border would result a Klingon diaspora throughout Federation space and eventually lead to terrorism and/or separatist movements as Klingons gain majority status in certain choice colonies within Federation space. His "dismantle the fleet" canard is, likewise, a complete strawman and totally disconnected with what anyone in the room was actually proposing.

Carol Marcus does not refute David's "military" description
In a verbal argument where a man says four ridiculous things one after another, it's not always worth it to refute all four of them separately. Carol simply says "You're misinterpreting this."

It's sort of like how David suggests that an "overgrown boyscout" like Kirk is exactly the kind of man who would want to convert Genesis into a weapon of mass destruction and Carol replies "Kirk was never a boyscout."

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
What IS definitive, however, is that Starfleet has been explicitly described as a non-military organization and implicitly stated to be one far more often than the reverse.
What IS definitive is that Starfleet has been explicitly a Military organization during TOS
No, Starfleet was never called a military ORGANIZATION by anyone but David Marcus. Kirk calls himself "a soldier" by analogy even when he obviously isn't... and that's about it.

DS9 on the other hand could've started out as non-military and due to the war Starfleet became Military. The dialogue bears out that "Starfleet control over the government" equals "military rule"
At which point Starfleet would have made the transformation envisioned by Admiral Marcus a hundred years earlier. Doubtful that transformation was ever fully completed, seeing how Starfleet never actually overthrew the government.
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