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Old July 3 2013, 03:45 AM   #637
T'Girl
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
And yet Belz, I've pointed out more than once that moneyless societies have proven to be quite functional.
And this phrase on your part, moneyless society, is what I'm going to hold you to.

TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
I mentioned it in my posting: "Star Trek IV: Changes in society since 1986" in one of the Star Trek movie forums. Unfortunately, it's no longer there.
Found it, you ran time and bank together to form a single word.

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...81&postcount=1

But your supposition there is in error, time banks (or timebanks) are not "popular globally." Several thousand people in 26 nations does not equate to "popular globally." Nor do the time banks collectively form a "moneyless society," the thinly spread participants (who come and go) are not a community in any way. The banks are more of a charitable organization. And you TheGoodNews fail to disclose that the local organizers of the time banks are themselves often paid employees.

Moneyless huh?

TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
Wow! Except for the fact that the kibbutzim help lay the foundation for a future nation.
Except they were never Israel's foundation. Israel was never going to be a society of agrarian communes, but a urban society. The kibbutism were never Israel's "template."

Nor were the Kibbutzim ever really "moneyless societies," they required constant in pouring of outside money to stay in operation. At first mostly from the Jewish National Fund. After Israel's became a nation the kibbutzism became dependent on government subsidies.

How is that a "moneyless society?"

"In short, the individual has no money, nor does he need any, because his economic needs are satisfied by the kibbutz." Kibbutz: Venture in Utopia by Melford Spiro.
Since you apparently enjoy quotes ...

The globalization processes and the kibbutz failure to block them exposed the kibbutz society to a different type of culture. For example, after kibbutz members were allowed to have television sets in their own homes, the kibbutz members were exposed to “the good life” in which people were compensated for their work and could buy themselves different luxurious items. The kibbutzim were not capable of dealing with these processes

Consumption and Market Society in Israel, by Carmeli Y. and Applbaum K.


People in kibbutzism began to realize that the people in the rest of Israeli society (capitalist) and the rest of the world were "getting ahead" when those people work harder or smarter than the others within societies. Many within the kibbutzism want this life for themselves and their families. The people in the kibbutzism were all paid the same, regardless of their skills or labors. The kibbutzism simply could not compete with the growing knowledge of the non-kibbutz world.

They start to bleed their best people.

This lead to differences in pay within the kibbutzism based on the work individuals do, privatization of medical services, education, transfer of common property into the ownership of individual kibbutz members.

Any "satisfaction" in the economic set-up of the kibbutz, can be attributed to being isolated from the life styles of the rest of the Jews in their greater society.

Sounds moneyless to me.
Then how did they buy the television sets?

Like I've said, the Kibbutz movement during the early decades were completely socialized and did not use money.
And during these "early decades" how did they buy the land that they establish their communities on? Purchase the equipment to drain the swamps, farming equipment, weapons, building supplies?

And they were also hiring (with money) outside labors to assist in construction, and at harvest time.

The San Francisco Diggers were a sub-culture ...
But not a society in of themselves. They were not a "moneyless society," they were a short lived charity.

Thousands and thousands of Argentinians getting by w/o money in a self-organized economy for the better part of a decade.
Stop one damn minute, it's your position that those poor suffering people in that youtube video are CHOOSING to live like that? That's insane, less than one minute into the video, a woman dressed in red admitted her family having no money makes her feel ashamed. Later she said "what I really need is to work, to have money."

These people are doing the best they can in a undesirable economic environment, offer any of those people a paying job and they would literally jump at it.

This is one of your examples of a "moneyless society?"

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