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Old July 3 2013, 12:33 AM   #635
Lieutenant Commander
Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

In response to T'Girl,

Kibbutz's are not moneyless societies, the majority of people working in them are being paid for their efforts, and the outside workers brought into the Kibbutz communities are also paid. There are a small number of communities that claim to be moneyless, but there is a financial system and they are being supported by government subsidies, so are not moneyless.

It hard to see a Kibbutz as an example of your point.
Wow! Except for the fact that the kibbutzim help lay the foundation for a future nation. Talk about minimizing.

"In short, the individual has no money, nor does he need any, because his economic needs are satisfied by the kibbutz." Kibbutz: Venture in Utopia by Melford Spiro.

Sounds moneyless to me.

They existed in a limited area of one city for what TheGoodNews, three years before collapsing? Basically (if I have your reference correct) the digger group was given food (charity), and they occasion stole food from the local markets (stealing), they then gave this food away. They also attempted to run a substandard medical clinic (for free) before being shut down by the San Francisco board of health.

This was in no way a moneyless society, it was basically like today's food banks without the thieving, people (with money) provide food to a charitable organization, the food is then either sold at low cost or given away to those in need. My church helps run one of these.

Again, not an example of a "moneyless" society.
The San Francisco Diggers were a sub-culture, much like their historic namesakes from England. Much of their food came from restaurant and super market overflows that would have otherwise been tossed away.
They did try with their free housing, free store and other moneyless projects to make an important statement about poverty and homelessness in an abundant society. In fact, their most famous member Peter Coyote even had a few poignant statements about scarcity in the land of plenty:

The International Workers of the World are a trade union organizing service group, and their efforts are to increase wages and benefits, not create a moneyless society.

And they are not particularly successful at it, they have maybe a few thousand members. Most workers who are serious about possessing a union look elsewhere for organization services.
Nearly a century ago the IWW (a.k.a Wobblies) had over 100k members and they did help improve conditions significantly for the American worker.

"Around the turn of the century, the Wobblies and other anarchists played the central role in winning workers the 5-day week and 8-hour day." David Graeber - Fragments of an Anarchist Anthropology.

Your penchant for minimizing knows no bounds, T'G. A guilt complex, perhaps?

Just did a board search of your user name and the phrase "time banks." Correct me if I'm wrong, but in fact you've never mentioned time banks before. Maybe I missed it?
I mentioned it in my posting: "Star Trek IV: Changes in society since 1986" in one of the Star Trek movie forums. Unfortunately, it's no longer there.

The prime problem with "time banks" is there a lot of volunteering of unskilled labor, and relatively little volunteering by the professionally skilled. Nothing wrong with volunteering your time, but you can't base a society on it.
But worldwide they've grown in popularity due to the global recession and have helped so many around the world to at least get by. But as usual you keep trying to minimize the impact it has had. Try being that dismissive with the many people who've had to rely on them.

...the Barter/Exchange Co-ops of present-day Argentina.
Where all workers receive the same wages. Again, not an example of a moneyless society.
Have you not seen this:

Thousands and thousands of Argentinians getting by w/o money in a self-organized economy for the better part of a decade. Again, explain to these desperate people how futile their efforts are.

So you see T'G, I've brought up other historical examples besides the Spanish Revolution.

Like I've said, the Kibbutz movement during the early decades were completely socialized and did not use money. Even today there are close to 300 kibbutzim that collectively contribute to nearly 10% of the Israeli economy. And 25% are traditional communal (i.e. moneyless) where tasks are shared or rotated and where the average population of each kibbutz is around 400 people. That's a community of nearly 30K living outside a monetary system in today's world. And some purists even argue that if it involves money, wage-differentials and private property it goes against the principles of the kibbutzim and is therefore not a true kibbutz by the definition.

Oh, and regarding the Spanish Revolution, I advised you read Noam Chomsky's "Objectivity and Liberal Scholarship" section II, where he reviews the liberal intelligentsia's bias against the tremendous accomplishments of the Spanish workers and the reasons for that bias. Read it here, for free (as in you don't need to pay):

"In Barcelona, industry and commerce were largely collectivized, and a wave of collectivization spread through rural areas, as well as towns and villages, in Aragon, Castile, and the Levant, and to a lesser but still significant extent in many parts of Catalonia, Asturias, Estremadura, and Andalusia....The success of collectivization of industry and commerce in Barcelona impressed even highly unsympathetic observers such as Borkenau." Noam Chomsky - Objectivity and Liberal Scholarship from Chomsky on Anarchism
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