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Old June 25 2013, 05:14 PM   #49
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Belz... wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
My suspicion, in fact, is that the MACOs are the military of United Earth, and that this remains the case well into the 24th century.
You have zero evidence to support this speculation. MACOs are only seen in ENT. The fact remains that Starfleet is CALLED the military at several points in the franchise...
Actually, twice.

Once by David Marcus in a fit of frustration (to which Carol disagrees) and once by Ben Sisko in reference to Leyton's coup. Both times the comparison is made is when Starfleet caught doing something INCREDIBLY illegal, and I don't think that's a coincidence.

Your objection that Trek is about Starfleet fails because A) It's actually about a specific set of characters
All of whom are IN STARFLEET.

OTOH, we do have some non-Starfleet characters in the Bajoran Militia -- a military organization -- for whom it is apparently common knowledge that Starfleet "doesn't believe in warships."

Seriously, with the DOMINION WAR, wouldn't you at least expect some other military branch to be mentioned ?
I would have expected ALOT of things to be mentioned in the Dominion War. Especially telling is the fact that we never see or hear anything about Klingon or Jem'hadar troops in a land action until the Siege of AR-558, which appears to be atypical in every possible way.

But that's Star Trek for you: it's a drama, not a documentary. If it isn't relevant to that particular episode or one particular character, nobody's going to mention it.

I'm sorry, but this other UFP military you're talking about you just made up.
Much like the MACOs were "just made up" fifteen minutes prior writing the script for "The Expanse." And where were they, exactly, when Klaang running around in Broken Bow being chased by Suliban?

That doesn't tell us what the ships do most of the time, and contradicts some of the dialogue as well.
It contradicts NONE of the dialog. Only Defiant and Vengeance have EVER been described as built primarily for combat, and both times it was considered a pretty big deal.

I expected you to address my points.
Which I did. You implied these points were relevant to the definition of "military organization." They are not.

Hell, the only people that's even a question for are Worf and Yar, because they served as TACTICAL officers.
So Sulu is a scientist ?
In his TOS debut, Sulu was a botanist.

And Uhura ?
Xenolinguist. Judging by her ability to stare down pissed-off Klingon troopers, she's also an aspiring anthropologist.

That they learned some science in their training doesn't make them scientists.
That they use their science background to expand their knowledge, to interact with and study other cultures, and collect data for analysis and scholarly debate back home, DOES.

Most battles appear ?
Yes. Especially in the 24th century we encounter a dizzying number of worlds torn by decades of intense ground combat, including:
Setlik III
Minos Korvo
Turkana IV
Solaris V
Acamar III
Mordan IV
Krios Prime
Occupied Bajor (and later, the Bajoran Civil War).

That, just off the top of my head, is ten instances of extensive land wars, many of which involved the entire population of their planets for years or decades, resulting in millions of deaths and massive worldwide destruction. By comparison: Starfleet in the 24th century is depicted as having a handful of skirmishes in deep space resulting in the loss of perhaps a few dozen vessels and rarely anything amoounting to a full-scale war. The biggest combat operation of the TNG era is the Borg Invasion of 2367, involving an armada of 40 starships and over 12,000 officers.

Put that in perspective for a moment: Starfleet sees less combat in half a century then any of the above planets in a bad year. That is what I mean when I say that most combat takes place on the ground: because most WARS take place on the ground.

And lest you try to claim the Domion War changed all that, I'll remind you that Bashir's thinktank concluded that the Federation stood to loose up to nine hundred billion lives if they didn't find a way to beat the Dominion. Starfleet may be big, but it sure as hell doesn't have half a trillion officers, which means that the Dominion War NECESSARILY has a ground phase in which all of those civilians would be in the direct line of fire. Nine hundred billion casualties in a GROUND WAR would be the equivalent of every war Earth has experienced in the last 100 years, all happening simultaneously and duplicated on hundred different planets and a thousand different colonies. That would require a massive ground force -- not less than half a billion soldiers -- spread across the entire Federation.

You expect there's half a billion Starfleet officers? Somehow I doubt it. What's more, if you're going to maintain a land force with tens or hundreds of millions of members whose job it is to fight ground battles against outside invaders, you probably wouldn't call that STARfleet.
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Last edited by Crazy Eddie; June 25 2013 at 05:25 PM.
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