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Old June 24 2013, 10:19 PM   #629
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

BillJ wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
It's also worth noting that the two-thirds non-stereotypical women in Defiance leads to us having more non-stereotypical women than Trek has even with the alleged and contested absence of gender stereotypes.
Then you should be perfectly happy kicking Trek to the curb and discussing the Defiance universe for the next twenty or thirty years.
Oh I dunno, I might multi-task. Trek's potential hasn't been sucked dry yet and they are very different conceptually.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
I'm beginning to realize that you don't actually know anything about gender issues and have been basically talking out of your ass this entire time.
Lol - well of course I have! I'm playing Devil's Advocate. I'm not really as 'extreme' as I may sound just because I'm arguing for the contra position.

However, please don't assume that there is a universally accepted definition of the terms 'gender stereotype' and 'gender role'. Different sociologists and different cultures will have different definitions across the world. The kernel of the argument isn't invalidated because you think I've used the wrong label on certain items. If you want to present your contra case by explaining specifically what you do think are the gender stereotypes in Defiance so we can compare and contrast to any stereotypes in Trek, that takes the debate forward. If you think something does not count as a stereotype, then explain your reasons, don't slam your head into a wall.

However, putting Trek on a pedestal when it comes to stereotypes is unsustainable - it has a reduced number because its focus is on a workplace environment and even then there are plenty. However, such an analysis doesn't change the fact that there are a lot more women front and centre and driving forward plot elements forward in any single episode of Defiance.

And of course being a wife/mother can't be anything other than a gender stereotype - lol - but it only really crops up as a 'negative' in a sci fi concept when referring to characters who have no significant defined role outside of being the wife/mother to one of the other characters. Sarek, for example, is the Vulcan ambassador as well as Spock's father and functions in that role during the movie. Winona Kirk on the other hand does not function in her capacity as a starfleet officer on screen at all unless you count how her absence has a negative effect on her role as... a mother. I mention Nero's wife who was only an image because that's it for her - she's Nero's wife. Obviously, the nature of a Trek movie means that support characters will be sketchy at best, often just a few lines of dialogue, or a smiling hologram at worst but there is probably enough to compare.
Star Trek/Babylon 5/Alien crossover

Other Worlds Role Playing Game

Last edited by Pauln6; June 24 2013 at 11:52 PM.
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