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Old June 21 2013, 12:08 AM   #465
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Just as you are you are aware that I have acknowledged the other levels of the scene and that I have expressly stated that it was only the shot of Carol in her undies that was gratuitous. All the other levels of the scene could have worked just like Raiders of the Lost Ark, without flashing lots of skin and cleaveage on screen.
I guess my perspective must be skewed living so close to the beach and seeing women in bikinis walking down the street all the time, because that scene did not stick out as some excessive display of skin and cleavage to me at all. It was really tame. I mean, okay for TV before the safe harbor/watershed now tame. I mean, okay for TV after the safe harbor/watershed even in the 60s tame. Katy Perry showed as much cleavage on Sesame Street (also something which was blown way out of proportion).

Sure, the scene could have been done with her back to the camera, but I don't even understand the need. OMG, women have breasts. Film at eleven. Making her turn her back to not show her shameful covered breasts sounds like something out of the Taliban. People are acting like this is an episode of I Love Lucy and not a film shot in 2013 based on a TV show from the 60s that regularly showed more skin than this way back then. William Ware Theiss would be lynched by modern fans if this thread is any indication.

What I said is that you get a lot of women in diverse roles. You also get men in diverse roles. You get lots of men AND women in diverse roles. The nature of the Trek setting does not preclude showing women in a better light, it simply isn't implemented. With more women, we should see women in diverse roles.
There are women in diverse roles in ST09 and STiD. There are several bridge officers, women working in engineering, women as medical staff in sickbay, women security officers guarding the brig, women flag officers/captains/XOs at the Starfleet briefing, Uhura as the communications officer/linguistics specialist, Marcus as a science officer/weapons specialist...

Name six of them.
Nyota Uhura - Communications Officer/Linguist
Carol Marcus - Science Officer/Weapons Specialist
Hannity - Operations Officer
Darwin - Navigator
Madeline - Science Officer
Christine Chapel - Nurse
Unknown Female Bridge Officer (White Hair) - Possibly meant to be Ensign Brackett, since the credits writers or IMDb wrongly assigned that name to the previously named (in ST09) Hannity, who was also in STiD

It's also possible that Gaila was assigned to the Enterprise as a computer specialist, given her particular excitement with her ship assignment (which would especially make sense if she was assigned aboard the new flagship everyone wanted to serve on) and Kirk's confusion of another redheaded Orion Enterprise crew member with her in a deleted scene, which could imply that he knew she was aboard (but that's speculative).

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
All you need to know is that Scotty... trusts Keenser to work on the engines implicitly. That's all the evidence you really need or can reasonably expect about a secondary to a secondary character in four hours of screentime.
Lol - so what you are saying is that there is no actual evidence that he would make a good officer, we just have to assume that he is because he's there. That's what I said to start with but my issue is that there is no evidence while you are happy to assume that if he's there he deserves to be there.
Lol, no, like I said, lol, given his track record and depiction onscreen, lol, Scotty is the evidence of Keenser's competence, lol. Scotty would not allow someone who could not perform the job superbly and be safe around his engines, period. Nor would Keenser be his best friend and confidant if Scotty couldn't talk shop with him.

mos6507 wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
...bringing back segregation 300 years in the future is a positive response to alleged sexism in JJTrek, and not unbelievably more sexist itself.
Of course the solution is ridiculous! It's supposed to be satirical humor, not my personal opinion of utopia. In other words, the fact that all-female or all-male crews doesn't solve the underlying problems between men and woman is the moral of the story.
You could have explained that. I clicked through and watched a couple of the videos, and all I saw was a CGI Duplo character singing a Celine Dion style theme song while floating through space, and some other CGI Duplo bridge crew. It didn't tell me much of anything about the setting or plot.

But back to gender... In JJ Trek, aside from Pike's dressing down, Kirk being an egotistical jerk is presented as a way for him to be seen as hip or likable to teens and 20 somethings.
Except for how absolutely nothing works out right for him in this film. He gets demoted (and kicked off his ship and sent back to the Academy before the crisis happens). He gets rebuffed by Carol. He gets told by Spock that his vengeful attitude is wrong and against Starfleet ethics. He loses his chief engineer. He apologizes to his crew for getting their asses handed to them by the Vengeance. He's outsmarted by Khan (Spock's the one who saves the day). His ship is crippled and falls to Earth without ever firing a shot. He dies.

If it weren't for being reborn Jesus style, it would be an entirely shitty day to be James T. Kirk. In what way is any of that an affirmation of his behavior? The whole point of the film is that he has to grow in order to become the captain he was meant to be, and after finally fumbling through things for a while he accomplished that at the end by realizing vengeance is wrong, being humbled and apologizing, sacrificing his life for his shipmates, treating Carol as a valued officer and member of the Enterprise family and not a potential conquest, and making an impassioned memorial speech, ethics mission statement, and a call for exploration at the end.

... just as we're supposed to chuckle over Kirk's joke out of the turbolift quipping about Spock and Uhura fighting. In other words, everything in Into Darkness is actually just a fun little Indiana Jones style 'romp'.
My god, the horror. How will we live down being compared to a fun billion dollar grossing critically and fan acclaimed film series?!

And yeah, you are supposed to laugh at the turbolift scene. I guess the audiences I saw the film with aren't as highbrow as you, because we all thought it was funny and not the abomination before Goddenberry you apparently felt it was.

The fact that it's been accepted points to audiences preferring not to think about anything deeper than how sexy Alice Eve looks in black lingere.
I and others have accepted it and have come up with deeper meaning behind that scene too, so don't presume to think your rigid and humorless take on how things should be is the norm.
'First Contact' is the tale of a man who just wants to cash in on his creation so he can get wasted on an island full of naked women, but his fans keep insisting that he's a saintly visionary who has profoundly altered the world. AKA - 'I Don't Want to be a Statue: The Gene Roddenberry Story.'
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