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Old June 20 2013, 08:54 PM   #454
Locutus of Bored
Full Metal Bat'leth
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Location: Huntington Beach, California
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

mos6507 wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
I have the solution to the problem though.
Men in one ship. Women in another.
Then there'll be no yucky kissing or holding hands or carrying on in either ship. A lot more work will be done. And the Federation will be a lot better off
Which is the exact premise of my Fem Trekz show, which is to some degree a reaction against the unprofessional animal-house atmosphere established in JJ Trek.
I don't know what's funnier (or more sad). That you took CommishSleer's obvious sarcastic joke as a serious solution, or that you think bringing back segregation 300 years in the future is a positive response to alleged sexism in JJTrek, and not unbelievably more sexist itself.

Next up on Terrible Problem Solving Theater, we fix unequal pay for women by bringing back indentured servitude, and we attempt to remove a bee hive with a fifty kiloton thermonuclear warhead.

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
I don't know how many times I can say I wasn't that bothered by it. Yes it was gratuitous, yes it was blatant titillation but meh.
Like a poor marksman, you keep missing the target. Continuing to say the scene was "blatant" and "gratuitous" and not acknowledging that other levels of intent to the scene exist IS THE PROBLEM. Are you not aware of what "gratuitous" means?

Even Game of Thrones, which is set in an incredibly sexist, quasi-medieval setting has a far better ratio of men to women than Trek.

I still think that, given the limits of its setting, GoT has a much better approach to women than Trek currently does.
Thank you for proving the point that the quality of the depiction of most of the women is not what matters to you, only the numbers. There are certainly many strong female characters in GoT, but there are many more who are just treated horribly (though to be fair, so are many men). Now, given the medieval setting (even in a fictional universe), that is somewhat to be expected, because women weren't treated well then to say the least, but to try and say it depicts women in a better light than Star Trek as a franchise does is astonishing in its shortsightedness to me.

I love Game of Thrones, don't get me wrong, but that assertion is just... wow. Completely off the wall. I'll try and remember how progressive the show is the next time Joffrey asks a couple of female prostitutes to get naked, beat one to a pulp with a wooden club, and then later crossbows the other in the crotch and breasts. I guess we can consider the glass ceiling of King's Landing's power hierarchy shattered (and then the shards are used to mutilate female prostitutes).

Also, there are women all over the place on the Enterprise, especially on the bridge (but also in the brig, sickbay, and engineering). They're not all main characters, because the main characters are already established from TOS, but there are lots of woman present as officers among the crew. I would say the male/female ratio (since that's all you seem to care about) is equivalent to GoT in that respect.

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Lol - an officer has to be able to do the job of an officer. How can he give orders if he has no way to communicate? My issue is with the way Keenser is portrayed as a joke alien. If he were portrayed in a way that demonstrated he could do the job, I'd be fine. He doesn't even use a universal translator.
Besides the fact that --as mentioned-- he's spoken English dialogue in the films, we have Scotty mention that he talks too much. Now, it could have been a sarcastic quip about how he doesn't talk that much (or he does and it all just happens offscreen), but it at least acknowledges that he does talk sometimes. I don't recall the actual line in ST09 that well.

And how do you know he doesn't use a universal translator? What do the portable UTs even look like in this universe? We haven't seen one yet. It's most likely built into the communicators, but it could also be sewn into micro-circuitry inside their uniforms or built into the corridors of ships and stations for all we know.

Rather than saying, he is, therefore he does, I'm interested to know what evidence we can see on screen to support the notion that Keenser would make a good assistant chief engineer (i.e. a subjective opinion based on the visual evidence).
All you need to know is that Scotty, who won't let unchecked weapons on his ship because of how they might negatively interact with his engines, who is willing to quit over his convictions and won't be forced into doing something he thinks is wrong or unsafe, and who has a strong code of ethics, trusts Keenser to work on the engines implicitly. That's all the evidence you really need or can reasonably expect about a secondary to a secondary character in four hours of screentime.
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