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Old June 16 2013, 02:28 PM   #266
Pauln6
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
I notice you didn't address the overall issue. Trading quality for quantity is a net loss, not a net gain. Your reference to BSG is particularly poignant:

Your complaint is essentially that this movie lacks an appropriate quantity of female characters. Quantity, however, is irrelevant, as it could just as easily be achieved by adding a lesbian threesome as both of the prominent female characters are well-developed and dynamic personalities. It makes no sense to start randomly replacing extras with female parts just for the sake of having female parts; the same balance of quantity could be easily achieved by setting Kirk and Pike's conversation in a nudie bar.
I'm advocating BOTH quality and quantity. We should have both. And the fact that you've jumped into sexualising the female characters so readily is symptomatic of the problem. It is possible to have two women on screen even if they aren't in bed together... It's also worth pointing out that a significant number of women that are shown in these moves are already shown in sexualised roles.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Nothing about Cupcake requires him to be a man at all. The framework of NuStarbuck was taken from the original and she was a fascinating character.
Cupcake is NOT a fascinating character, male OR female. Ergo, switching the gender makes no difference whatsoever.
That's part of my point. If it makes no difference then half of cupcake type characters might as well be female. There's no genuine reason not to do it.

OTOH, NuStarbuck is variously portrayed as a misanthropic malcontent and high-functioning alcoholic with a severely overclocked libido. It isn't actually the gender reversal of the original character so much as the FUSION of two original characters; basically, the prostitute in the flight suit. A similar thing happens with Commander Cain, where just for the lulz they trot out a steamy lesbian affair with Cylon #6 who then goes on to get raped by just about everybody (remember I mentioned that earlier? It's not accidental).
LOL. Ok, now you are really giving away your true colours. Starbuck really didn't have that much sex throughout the series actually and some of that was down to her being self-destructive - deliberately hurting Lee becase she was pushing him away and most of it was with her husband. In many ways she's a more extreme version of NuKirk, who in just two movies has had sex with as many partners. The fact that you've lumped in a sexualy active woman with a prostitute while Kirk gets the thumbs up as a ladeez man speaks volumes.

And actually, Cassiopeia only had sex with one man in the original series and she didn't even charge. I was rather disappointed she was missing from NuBSG (although elements of her found their way into Six such as Gina's relationship with Cain).

Further, the close reationship with Cain with Gina was added in as a way to justify one of the reasons why Cain went so batsh*t crazy and sanctioned the abuse. I don't recall anything steamy though - one dinner party? Either I was't paying attention or you might have dreamed that part. Again, the use of language is telling.

The rape scenes were intended to be troubling. In the same way that the suicide bombings were meant to be troubling. The writers were deliberately subverting our expectations. The Cylons were the western world moving in, destroying or subverting pre-existing culture wth their new-fangled mono-theistic religion. The victims began losing their humanity, killing innocents indiscriminately, and dehumanising them (a lot of women get raped by soldiers al over the world). It was disturbing but the wider message was compelling.

Clancy_s wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
OTOH, NuStarbuck is variously portrayed as a misanthropic malcontent and high-functioning alcoholic with a severely overclocked libido.
I'm one of the few who preferred the original BGA - as I saw him malcontent and high-functioning alcoholic with a severely overclocked libidoalso applied to the male version of Starbuck.
Lol - very good point. That concisely illustrates the double standard that applies equally to NuKirk, although Kirk's problems pale compared to NuStarbuck.

OTOH, how many openly gay male characters exist in sci-fi? Related question: how many sci-fi novels, films or movies have ever depicted male-on-male sexual assault? Last question: who, other than a complete baddass like John Barrowman, could EVER get away with playing an openly gay character?
They had a gay relationship in the Nubsg webisodes although I don't thnk it was all that relevant to the plot.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
I wonder how they managed to source so many actresses?
Filming in the U.K.. Why do you suppose the ended up casting Alice Eve as Carol Marcus?
Well now if you are suggesting that UK dramas have a better record at casting more women, and older women, in more prominent roles, then I agree but only slightly. But compared to the USA as a whole, I'm sure we have a lot fewer actresses. I think somehow Hollywood can manage with the increased numbers.

I wish more people would approach the opposing argument with as much blunt vigour. We'd win it a lot sooner!
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Last edited by Pauln6; June 16 2013 at 03:42 PM.
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