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Old June 15 2013, 01:13 AM   #50
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Re: Has anyone else noticed the major plot flaw in TWOK?

Christopher wrote: View Post
I get that in principle, and it's the reason I'm able to enjoy the Abrams films despite their plot and logic holes. But this film is one I don't enjoy that much, for a variety of reasons.
This is where that darn human thing called subjectivity comes in I suppose. Where I find Star Trek II awesome, I'm not so excited about the JJ films, especially this most recent one.

Christopher wrote: View Post
I feel it damaged the franchise by replacing the intelligent, plausible science fiction that Roddenberry aspired to (but often fell short of achieving) with cartoony melodrama and overblown action. I find it too violent and bloody for my tastes, yet at the same time extremely sluggish in pacing (and I'm saying this as someone who likes ST:TMP).
Well this is also debatable, but my guess would be another film like TMP would have killed the franchise. And overblown action? Would you not concede that JJ's films rely just as much if not more on action than TWOK? And how did you feel about this new movie lifting line after line from TWOK? Did you not find that terribly corny? Face-palm worthy, even? I only ask because you say you enjoy the JJ films more than TWOK.

Christopher wrote: View Post
It wasn't just "dramatic," it was over-the-top, corny melodrama, like everything else that passes for dramatic in the film (Kirk's "KHAAAAAAANNNN!!!" is the most embarrassingly corny moment in the history of the franchise).
It was so embarrassingly corny that JJ re-used it in the new film, giving the line to SPOCK of all people! If it's corny in its original form, what on earth did you think when you heard it in the new film? You were still able to enjoy it more than TWOK??

Anyway, to me that line and Shatner's delivery is a classic Kirk and classic Shatner moment. Honestly, TOS has corny and melodramatic moments at every turn. How is any corny or melodramatic moment in TWOK a deviation from TOS?

Christopher wrote: View Post
The original goal behind Star Trek was to approach science fiction as maturely and naturalistically as any cop show or courtroom drama or medical drama of the day -- to get away from the exaggeration and corniness and broad caricatures of previous SFTV and do a show that was about believable human beings doing jobs that just happened to be in outer space in the future...I think that betrays the original intention behind the franchise. It might be a fun film in its way, but it's not a believable film, either on a technical level or a character level, and that's a failure to live up to the original goals of the series.
So then, I guess TOS betrays the original intention as well because it was certainly full of all kinds of exaggeration, corniness and broad caricatures, and many ideas that were definitely not believable. But there was certainly truth and intelligent commentary there as well. And it was entertaining. And I love it! And TWOK lives up to all of that as well. And while there may be plot holes which can be debated (as with all films, really) and technical ideas like genesis which are not explainable today and may never be, it certainly was a believable story to me, and definitely believable on a character level. Truly classic Trek on the big screen if you ask me.

Christopher wrote: View Post
I wrote:
I believe Kirk said "I've never faced death. Not like this." In a sense, every death we face is different...
I think that's bending over backwards to justify a line that doesn't really add up. Again, it's a matter of believability -- I can't believe that Kirk would feel that way about it, that he'd dismiss all the other terrible tragedies he's been through as if they never happened.
That's because Kirk wouldn't dismiss his past tragedies. He didn't. He said "not like this." By adding that, he's actually acknowledging past tragedies and revealing that this one is different to him. A very real, honest moment and clever writing. Absolutely believable and human.
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