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Old June 14 2013, 12:31 PM   #147
stj
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

BillJ wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
I love how nobody is actually addressing his points.
Because his points are beyond ludicrous fueled by his dislike of a character. Kirk in both timelines broke into computers he had no business in and reprogrammed the test. Both cheated.
Inasmuch as the purpose of the scenario was to test responses to defeat, every response is valid information. There are no right answers. You haven't even thought out what you mean by cheating. The acceptability of the responses depends on what the Kirks reprogrammed into the scenario, yet you refuse to consider the issue posed. And the whole discussion is kind of nuts, because the only point in Abrams' version is to show Kirk's cocksmanship in rigging the test and enjoy him punking the teachers.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Yeah, I don't get how anyone could think otherwise. Do they think Starfleet cadets are allowed to reprogram the the simulations they are about to take, to ensure they win? It's like rewriting a test, so you know the answers.
Again, there are no answers in this test. You too have completely misunderstood pretty much everything you've seen and heard.

The quotes are nested so confusingly I've lost track of who originally posted this. But it was in Locutus of Bored post.

Kirk was taking the test for a third time when he finally reprogrammed it, so he knew what it was about.
Locutus of Bored goes on:

Even more to the point, why would they inform anyone of when they're taking this test?
Kirk in TWoK must have known the test was coming up or else he wouldn't have had time to reprogram the simulation. The same goes for Kirk in ST09 (plus, Kirk and McCoy and later Kirk and Uhura were discussing taking the test the next day).
As seen, the claim that the original Kirk must have known overlooks his own post. I've forgotten whether we saw the new Kirk's reaction to "failing" the test. But the real point, inadvertently made to be sure, is that the test makes no sense if the student walks into it knowing, even in rough outline, what's going to happen that day. However, this doesn't make the two Kirks morally equivalent. It just demonstrates gross confusion on the part of the writers!

All that we know is that Kirk distinctly says he "reprogrammed the simulation" and "changed the conditions of the test to make it possible to rescue the ship" in TWoK. It's explicitly stated in both cases that he reprogrammed the computer to allow him to win. Anything else you're tossing in there to make TWoK Kirk look better in this situation because of your dislike of ST09 is just baseless speculation.
Here, the "you" is not me. Nonetheless, the original Kirk said "could" save the Kobayashi Maru, and we saw the new Kirk made it so he "would" save the ship. Your argument (and most everyone else's) boils down to pretending there's no difference between "could" and "would." What's making you people say something so silly?

sojourner wrote: View Post
Here's the problem. there is no information to support your supposition. originalKirk never actually narrated what he did. We have no way of knowing exactly what measures he took to win beyond the vague statement that he "change the parameters".
Your wishful thinking does not translate into fact.

And this silly "Kirk didn't believe in the no-win scenario" so he wouldn't program the computer generate Klingons to have a no win chance is beyond moronic.
Please keep up. The original Kirk said explicitly "make it possible." That is, "could." We saw what the new Kirk did, which is guarantee he "would." Aside from the lunacy of rewriting English so that "could" and "would" are synonyms, your only chance to defend your position is to hold that the original Kirk's narration was unreliable. This is still a forced interpretation. And one that so far as I know never occurred to anyone before they needed to defend the scene in the new movie.

CorporalCaptain;8244769= wrote:
Perhaps the problem some people are having is just in the execution?
Possibly, but that's a more or less counterfactual discussion of how the Abrams' crew should have written the character. I'm pretty sure they were mostly interested in showing Kirk seduce a woman and sneer at the testers. That seems to be a pleasurable experience for most and I don't see discussion changing that. The best we can hope for is genuine understanding of the differences in the two Kirks demonstrated.

stj wrote: View Post
In the Abrams version, Kirk programmed in a no-win scenario for the opponent. Since the original Kirk doesn't believe in the no-win scenario, the distinct implication is that is not what the original Kirk did. The difference does show a difference in the Kirks' characters, and it is a difference that reflects badly on the new version.
That's not what not believing in the no-win scenario means. It doesn't mean that you always deliberately give your enemy an out, due to some misguided sense of fair play. It means you believe that in real life you always have a chance, if only you can find it in time.

Did you have a problem with Kirk Prime's ethics, when he lowered the Reliant's shields with the prefix code and fired on her? Or, do you think that Kirk fired on an unshielded ship only because he knew he had weakened phasers?
If Khan had just been a little bit smarter, he'd have changed the codes. He had his possible out. In practice of course, the oversight by a highly inexperienced albeit brilliant commander was Kirk's possible out. He was the one who was losing.
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