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Old June 14 2013, 08:53 AM   #628
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Re: Destiny: Lost Souls by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
There is no such thing as legitimate genocide. Ever. Species have a right to exist, full stop.
And what if a race consists of a single (remaining) person who is a mass murderer and attempting to kill others?
1. Could you possibly come up with a more ridiculous scenario? "What if there's a nuclear bomb that an Orc is planting in downtown Manhattan, and the only way to stop him is to go to Mount Doom to re-create the One Ring?!"

2. That race is already extinct in any meaningful sense. Killing one guy in an act of immediate self-defense is not genocide; that culture no longer exists, because cultures need more than one person.

However, saying Section 31 is absolutely evil for their actions also ignores that the only reason the Cardassians are alive is the THREAT of the plague.
The only reason the Female Shapeshifter ordered the genocide of Cardassia was that she was driven to irrationality by the virus and the knowledge that her people were dying. Had she been in her right state of mind, she would not have so ordered the extinction of the Cardassian people.

Except that we know both from the canon, which established the existence of Founder infants, and from novels like The Dominion: Olympus Descending (which established the existence of Founders with minds not fully-developed and unaware of the outside universe) that the Founders are not all involved in the Dominion decision-making process, and are not all guilty of war crimes. There are in fact, what can only be described as Founder civilians, just like any other society. And we don't know that there aren't Founder dissidents who opposed policies but didn't carry the day.
I'm merely going from the DS9 series and my observations of it.
DSN canonically established the existence of Founder infants and of dissent within the link -- remember the debate over what to do about Odo's killing another Founder? So canonically, all DSN established was that the Founders mind meld, that not all Founders make decisions, and that the Founders who do make decisions can disagree with one-another. Hardly reasonable to decide they all deserve death.

Odo's position as a being divorced from the Great Link means he has a different perspective from the other Founders. That, other than themselves, they are unified in their opinions and ideals.
Nope. This is canonically inaccurate. Re-watch the DSN Season Four finale. Disagreement exists within the link.

Point taken, however, on the novels. I don't LIKE the message that Section 31 is justified in creating a WMD bio-weapon but I thought it was ambiguous since the only way to save billions of lives was through it's use.
Not really. The Dominion lost the war through conventional means, not through the virus. Their forces had been beaten and forced to mass at Cardassia. Had the Female Shapeshifter been thinking rationally instead of facing imminent species mortality, she almost certainly would have surrendered and left the Alpha Quadrant -- her order that the Jem'Hadar and Breen stand their ground was the result of her irrationality from the virus, not the kind of cool, calm, calculating decision she'd normally make. The virus damn near cost the Federation thousands more lives than the war would otherwise have cost.


Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
I'd also like to add that this ties into what's good about Lost Souls. The Borg as cybernetic zombies is dealt with in a respectful manner. The Borg, like the Daleks, are treated both seriously in their concept (they are a race of "pure evil" because they're each without free will) but that destruction of them is evil in itself.

J.R.R Tolkien, frequently accused of being a racist in his own life, was actually troubled by the concept of "purely evil" Orcs as they were the first real race of note created solely to be cannon fodder for our heroes to effortlessly cut down. He was aware of the troubling consequences of this as it conflicted with his Catholic faith and, in all likelihood, reminded him of the kinds of arguments he heard in the 1940s.

Star Trek created one of the best "cannon fodder" races in the Borg for these fantasy ethical discussions and the best use of the Borg after BOBW was the merciless deconstruction of this. "Hugh" showed the Borg who grew up in the Collective were not evil or malicious (like the Founders) but simply mislead as to the nature of their situation. Seven of Nine ran with this premise and the "Cooperative" indicates that without the merciless driving will of the Queen, the Borg might actually be something people could willingly join.

Star Trek Destiny is all about the redemption of the Borg and the Caeliar is a necessary deconstruction of their role as absolute evil. It's a tight balance to walk but addresses the issue of universal slavery, "innate evil", redemption, and so on without failing. That's probably the biggest accomplishment of Lost Souls.

It nicely says, "No, Picard was RIGHT not to kill the Collective. He might have saved sixty billion but he'd have killed trillions."
Agreed completely.
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