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Old June 14 2013, 02:23 AM   #141
The Festivus Awakens
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
Everybody doesn't know it's a no-win scenario, that's a secret you are not allowed to divulge, and Starfleet sure doesn't share that information upfront
Kirk was taking the test for a third time when he finally reprogrammed it, so he knew what it was about.

Plus, I don't care how many safeguards and honor codes you have in place, there's no way an unwinnable scenario test remains a secret from cadets for decades. People talk, rumors are passed. Are officers who have already graduated from the Academy never going to talk to their younger siblings or friends or family about the crazy test they had to take in command school?
Decades? Spock programmed the test. He hasn't been in his capacity at Starfleet Academy for Decades? Of course Kirk assumed after a couple failures that something was up.
I was talking about the span between Kirk taking the test and Saavik taking it in TWoK, which would have been around thirty years.

And going from ST09, I would think cadets would be more inclined to talk around campus about the new, totally unfair (from their perspective) unwinable test they had to take, much like McCoy was with Kirk. After a long time it becomes like old hat and a traditional cadets have to slog through, but I could easily see the earliest cadets really resenting it and making their complaints known on campus, especially in a highly competitive, ego-driven environment like Starfleet Academy where winning is everything to a lot of cadets.

Sure, there will be some who will pass it onto their siblings or best buds, but, that's far from "Everybody"
So, your contention is now that there may have been like, five people who were completely unaware of what was going on with the KM Test? I can accept that, even though you were clearly arguing that its secrecy was widespread. Any more than a few people at the Academy not knowing about it stretches credibility.

The cadets know the test is unwinable in advance. In fact, the psychological aspect of knowing that it's coming and seeing how you face the prospect of even taking the test at all is probably something you're evaluated on too. You know the people who stress over upcoming tests to the point of taking pills to help them concentrate or stay awake? Can you imagine the kind of pressure an unwinable scenario test would have on them? Some cadets might even just quit. Then, on the flip side, you have the people who --knowing that it's unwinable-- would totally just blow off preparing for the test and not take it seriously.

Both extremes; cadets who freaked out, and those who didn't "take the simulation seriously" (remember this is what Kirk's test evaluators in the booth were most concerned about in ST09) would be judged poorly. Those who took a middle ground approach would probably be deemed reliable command material. Kirk in ST09 baffled them by seemingly not caring during the simulation itself but obviously caring a lot since he took the risk to rig a method of winning.

There are all kinds of examples in real life where tests are kept secret by those who had to endure taking them. Do you think every student with a Biology test in 6th period would already have been told by the 1st period students who took the test already what all the questions are? No, sure one or two kids will probably know what questions are on the test, but, it's far from everybody.
You don't see any difference at all between the difficulty and risk in copying every question on a test to pass on to later students and just telling their friends "Yo brah, you won't believe this totally bogus unwinable test they gave us today" (23rd century slang is based on Bill & Ted). One is hard to do and carries a much greater risk of being caught, and the other is speaking a few words that is completely impossible to monitor or enforce even if you were trying to keep it a secret. Plus, one is actually cheating, whereas the other is just talking about a shared or soon to be shared experience.

stj wrote: View Post
Much of the above is irrelevant. So what if people tell others about the Kobayashi Maru test? If the program has random variable variations so each test is different, there won't be any significant cheats.
That wasn't the point of the post I was responding to, though. He stated that the fact that it was a no-win scenario would likely remain secret among most of the cadets, which is what I was addressing.

Even more to the point, why would they inform anyone of when they're taking this test?
Kirk in TWoK must have known the test was coming up or else he wouldn't have had time to reprogram the simulation. The same goes for Kirk in ST09 (plus, Kirk and McCoy and later Kirk and Uhura were discussing taking the test the next day).

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Well, if I could beat the no-win scenario, I'd be Captain Kirk. But, basically, it would have to be something that could happen in the real world. No commander would be able to make a bunch of Klingon ships blow up just by smirking at them like Q. It would have to be some kind of bluff, maybe, like in "The Corbomite Maneuver." Or some way to stall them to make time to beam the survivors aboard-- maybe challenge the Klingon commander to arm wrestling, or some such thing that his honor could not refuse. Something that could really happen. Just vandalizing the program is a punk-ass move by a dumb kid. It would just make Starfleet say, "Throw the bum out." Whatever he actually did made them say, "This is a kid worth watching."
All that we know is that Kirk distinctly says he "reprogrammed the simulation" and "changed the conditions of the test to make it possible to rescue the ship" in TWoK. It's explicitly stated in both cases that he reprogrammed the computer to allow him to win. Anything else you're tossing in there to make TWoK Kirk look better in this situation because of your dislike of ST09 is just baseless speculation.
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