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Old June 6 2013, 02:47 AM   #45
Sci
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Re: A Military Star Fleet and UESPA

T'Girl wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
bryce wrote: View Post
In DS9 they mentioned how the Bajorian Militia would have to be "incorporated into Starfleet"
Well the relaunch novels, especially the Worlds of DS9 novel about Bajor, go into a lot of detail about the process of incorporating the Bajoran Militia into Starfleet.
I believe the term used was absorbed, as in to accommodate or take in.

When a new member joins NATO they have to alter their military structures so as that they can conduct joint operations with other NATO members .
Tell that to the French.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
No. If it's the Federation Starfleet rather than the United Earth Starfleet, that means that it is an agency of the Federation government (rather than the United Earth government).
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Look at it this way, when a Turkish warship is the command ship of a NATO fleet (like off the horn of Africa), it is referred to as the NATO flagship, but it's still a Turkish warship.
In addition to that example, consider this ...
For the record, T'Girl is being disingenuous above. She quotes herself in post #31 after her quote of myself in Post #39, as though #31 were a reply to #39 -- which it obviously is not. Post #31 did not in any way reply to Post #39.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
No. If it's the Federation Starfleet rather than the United Earth Starfleet, that means that it is an agency of the Federation government (rather than the United Earth government).
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Look at it this way, when a Turkish warship is the command ship of a NATO fleet (like off the horn of Africa), it is referred to as the NATO flagship, but it's still a Turkish warship.
In addition to that example, consider this ...

When Brazil assumed command of the United Nations Interim Force task force (Lebanon) in 2011, the frigate União (Union) identified itself officially as the flagship of the United Nations Interim Force. And not officially as a Brazilian naval vessel.

Today, in addition to the Brazilian frigate Constituição (Constitution), the UNIFIL task force is currently comprised of 2 ships from Bangladesh, 3 ships from Germany and 1 ship each from Greece, Indonesia and Turkey. All these ship remain part of their home Navy's, but are also part of the United Nations Interim Force to which they are attached. This would be how they would referred to themselves.
The problem with this comparison is that under no circumstances are ships of the Federation Starfleet referred to as being "Earth" or "Vulcan" starships in some non-temporarily-attached-to-the-Federation-Starfleet context, and there is no evidence whatsoever of them being "loaned" to the Federation Starfleet.

In fact, the demobilized, about-to-be-decommissioned, not-on-any-missions-and-therefore-not-attached-to-any-international-organization's-task-forces U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701 is explicitly referred to as Federation property in Star Trek IV. There is no way the demobilized Enterprise could be United Earth property, because there is no way a demobilized ship could still be under the command of an international organization's task force.

And that's to say nothing of the fact that no one has ever called those task forces in real life the "NATO Navy" or the "United Nations Navy." Yet the organization in STAR TREK has often been called the Federation Starfleet. Not the "Federation Interim Forces Task Force."

T'Girl wrote:
Sci wrote:
the Federation President is referred to as Starfleet's commander-in-chief in DSN
Actually he refers to himself with that term, and no one else ever does.
This is the context of that scene:

"Paradise Lost," DSN wrote:
SISKO
You want proof... Order Admiral
Leyton to withdraw his troops from
the streets... see what he does.

JARESH-INYO
You think he would refuse a direct
order from his commander-in-chief?

SISKO
If he orders his troops to stand
down, then I'm wrong and I'll
offer my resignation. But I don't
think that's going to happen.
With those troops in place,
Admiral Leyton controls Earth.
And he's not going to give up that
control until he's convinced he's
ended the Dominion threat.
No one else refers to the Federation President as the commander-in-chief because they all recognize and agree that he is the commander-in-chief. Sisko even says that if Leyton obeys the President -- in other words, if he treats the President as his commander-in-chief -- that means that the coup Sisko suspects is coming won't happen.

And it is truly strange that he would self-describe himself as such, given that it's made perfectly clear over the course of the show that it is the Federation Council, and not the "commander-in-chief" that is providing instructions to Starfleet.
Actually, the Federation Council is barely mentioned in that episode.

Yes, we do see other episodes where the Federation Council issues instructions to Starfleet -- though whether or not they constitute orders is questionable. But we have seen the Federation President issue direct orders to Starfleet before in Star Trek VI and in Star Trek IV. So the most this could prove is that Starfleet's chain-of-command functions somewhat differently; it certainly does not prove that Starfleet's commander-in-chief is not the President, and it does not prove that Starfleet is not an agency of the Federation government.

In the case of NATO, there is "SHAPE" (Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe) it is the Headquarters of Allied Command Operations.

Allied Command Operations is responsible for all Alliance military operations, analogous perhaps to Starfleet Command.
There is no evidence whatsoever that Starfleet is an international organization's platform for military cooperation between sovereign states' armed forces. Starfleet is only ever referred to as the Federation Starfleet, and it only ever answers to the Federation government. Its ships are never called Earth or Tellarite or whatever ships -- they are Federation property, and remain Federation property even when demobilized, as established in STIV.

When different Members starships operate together, they are the Federation's Starfleet.
There is no evidence of this whatsoever. You are making this up.

ENT's scenic artists may have revived UESPA for their 22nd Century United Earth Starfleet, but the Federation Starfleet is clearly a different thing.
Hardly clear at all.

Today many countries have a "Navy."
True! Yet neither NATO nor the United Nations have their own navies.

Why would it be odd if both United Earth and the Federation both used the term "Starfleet?"
Not odd at all. I have no problem with the idea that the Federation Starfleet and the United Earth Starfleet are separate organizations, one answering to the Federation government and one answering to the United Earth government -- in the same way that the Maryland Defense Forces answer to the State of Maryland and the United States Navy answers to the United States.

There is no evidence whatsoever that the Starfleet seen outside of ENT is an Earth organization. It is the Federation Starfleet, not the United Earth Starfleet.
Or there is in fact a "United Earth Starfleet" and when United Earth deploys portions of it's fleet to operate in combination with other Federation Member's starships those ships are part of the "Federation Starfleet."
Then how could Miles O'Brien say he's always been in service to the Federation Starfleet, if he's actually in the United Earth Starfleet? Why would the Borg identify the U.S.S. Voyager as a ship of the Federation Starfleet if it is actually an Earth ship? How could the demobilized U.S.S. Enterprise be Federation property if it's no longer operating in combination with anyone's ships?

It's the Federation Starfleet. Period.

Christopher: "I see. Did the Navy ... ?"
Kirk: We're a combined service Captain. Our authority is the United Earth Space Probe Agency.
As I said before: The writers of TOS retconned UESPA out when they created Starfleet and the Federation. That line is no longer in continuity, any more than claims that Vulcans had been conquered in "The Conscience of the King" remained in continuity after "The Immunity Syndrome" established that Vulcan had never been conquered, or than Kirk's middle name remained "R" after later episodes established his middle name to be "T," or than the idea that the interaction of matter and anti-matter would lead to the destruction of the universe after later episodes established that m/am reactions are the routine way warp power is generated.
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