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Old May 24 2013, 09:31 AM   #47
Tora Ziyal
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Re: Pope: Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Things are broken. Not people.
Then suggest a better word for what I was describing.
The problem is that that kind of language (broken, fallen, evil, sinners, etc) shifts the blame from what we do to what we are. It takes away personal responsibility. "Good" and "evil" are just labels for promoting or censoring behaviours that are beneficial or harmful: they are not states of being.
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
Sinning is obviously a choice.
Yeah but since the idea is that we are sinners, what choice do we have? We must sin, that's our nature. Sure, we can avoid sin for a while, but we can't avoid it forever. As sinners, sin is what defines us.
Well, it's one thing that defines us. If you let it become the whole (or even the major part of the) definition, then, yes, that's a big problem.

I've never thought of it as taking away personal responsibility, just as being realistic that, try as we might to choose the good/right/beneficial things to do, we don't always succeed. Ultimately, everyone's imperfect, to use word Lt. Uhura-Brown suggested. But I do see where you're coming from.

I'm clearly not a Calvinist. No room for predestination in my world view.

It's 4:30 a.m., and I've been up most of the night with insomnia, so if this isn't totally coherent, I'm sorry.
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