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Old May 24 2013, 06:03 AM   #38
The Overlord
Captain
 
Re: The Romulans as "Space Romans"

Timo wrote: View Post
Can you provide examples of the CIA making average Americans disappear for criticizing the government?
Plenty, if the definition of criticize is to join an organization allegedly preparing to oppose the government with force. Which is a commonly used definition in history and, alas, in the current situation as well.
So who is a legitimate protest group who advocates a force as a means to oppose the government and which ones are not?

Was it wrong of the government to arrest the right wing activists behind the Oklahoma bombings? If a Neo Nazi group uses violence to oppose government, should the government do nothing?

Who is a freedom fighter and who is a terrorist? How do you answer that age old question?

Timo wrote: View Post
However, it's the secret polices we're speaking about. They work outside publicity. Even the most brutal secret polices haven't been able to make public people disappear: Stalin had to go another route there, publicly establishing dissidents as rabid criminals who not only could but indeed should be immediately and publicly deposed of.
But do you evidence that the CIA kills US citizens on US soil? The point of a secret police group is to promote terror among the population so they don't oppose the country's regime, is that atmosphere of terror present in the US?

Timo wrote: View Post
Its not like the CIA goes around killing members of the Tea Party or Occupy Wall Street.
Which is a far cry from saying they don't go around killing members in general, based on membership. And not just killing, but generally maiming, dehumanizing, and making disappear. Which is what secret polices do, in secret.
Disappearing usually is killing and unless the CIA create the atmosphere of terror among the general public, they are not really a secret police organization.

Timo wrote: View Post
C'mon, you know what CIA has been exposed doing. Even if that's not the tip of the iceberg but something like 80% of it, you have the inhuman secret police right there. And while these big guys have big budgets and big problems, little guys can join in the action easily enough, as secret police organizations actively cooperate internationally..
Again I am not arguing whether the CIA is moral or not, I am arguing whether they fit the definition of a secret police organization or not? Do you think the CIA will come and personally kill you for your opinions if you express

Timo wrote: View Post
Probably more than think the US of today is one. But this has nothing to do with democracies, as a secret police is the feature of any government regardless of what that government calls itself.
Okay, then what is Canada's secret police organization, what is France's? Or any other democratic country I can name? You said all Democracies have secret police organizations, so I can ask for examples of that from every one. You have not provided much in the solid examples, just rather vague incrimination. Let me ask you this, do you think the CIA will personal kill you if you criticize the government? If not, then they really an effective secret police organization are they?

Timo wrote: View Post
Why? Secret polices don't operate domestically exclusively, despite possible theoretically relevant legislation. Indeed, the ideal form of assassination of a citizen creates a disconnect between the killing and the citizenship - say, the victim is killed abroad, his identity is lied about, and the identity or allegiance of the killer is lied about.
Because having a group that operates almost solely on the internaionall stage doesn't create the atmosphere of terror that most secret police groups wish to inspire in their local population?

To go back to star Trek, would those people at the restaurant in Romulus have been afriad to defy the government, if the Tal'Shiar operated mostly outside of Romulus.

Look at the CIA's bizarre failed attempts to kill Castro, those plans are so silly, I don't find the CIA scary, they seem rather incompetent.

Timo wrote: View Post
If a majority of Americans declared to be bring back slavery, would that be Democratic, despite the fact it would curtail the rights of the minority?
Yes, by the very definition. And a few generations downstream, people would sigh resignedly on the immorality of their forefathers who banned slaveholding and upheld those antiquated morals that no longer are relevant in the world of thinking men.

Laws change, which just reflects the fact that morals change. The new normal settles in. And democracy is the one system that keeps up with the change, with its unique mechanism whereby the voters can punish the people in power for wrong decisions or deliberate inaction by removing them from their position in the next election, without the need for semiautomatic weapons.
Except a lot of people would say that Democracy needs rules in place to protect people's rights.

When someone's rights are violated, they often say its fascist and undemocratic, they don't just throw up their hands and say its okay because the government won an election last year.

Last edited by The Overlord; May 24 2013 at 06:19 AM.
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