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Old May 19 2013, 12:13 AM   #31
The Overlord
Re: The Romulans as "Space Romans"

Timo wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
I am not sure I would consider MI5 or the FBI similar to KGB or the Gestapo, the President of the US and the Prime Minister of the UK is criticized all the time and I don't see those people who are critical just disappear the next day. But you couldn't criticize Hitler or Stalin in such a manner and expect nothing will happen to you.
Not every secret police is there to bolster the ego of the head of state. Say, the secret police of 19th century Russia couldn't give a flying fuck about how people spoke of the silly Czar - but they made people disappear all right, in the name of national security and the rest of the usual excuses. The CIA does the very same thing nowadays.
Can you provide examples of the CIA making average Americans disappear for criticizing the government? The closest thing you have is drone strikes, which usually doesn't target American citizens. Its not like the CIA goes around killing members of the Tea Party or Occupy Wall Street. I am not going to defend the morality of drone strikes, but it is an example of US foreign policy rather then an internal secret police. Generally the CIA can't operate on US soil. So who exactly is making people disappear on US soil?

Timo wrote: View Post
A CIA agent couldn't bully around members of the US military the way the Tal'Shiar bullied around members of the Romulan military in Face of the Enemy.
Why not? CIA controls some resources of its own for conducting aerial reconnaissance in Afghanistan, but apparently they confiscate the rest (say, airspace, frequencies, bandwidth and runways for UAVs) from the USAF, simply by virtue of being a higher authority.
That doesn't mean the CIA can threaten members of the military, because the military has its own power base separate from the CIA, the CIA can't just go and kill the family of some military guy that is pissing them off. Its not remotely comparable to the situation between the Tal'Shiar and the military.

Timo wrote: View Post
So exactly who are these secret police organizations in all modern democracies?
You already listed some of them. Their methods of operation remain just as horrid as in the bad old days of the Czar's Okhrana, they torture and kill undesirables in the name of <insert virtue here>, and somehow they cannot be eradicated.
How many people think the Russian monarchy was a democracy? You have to come with more examples of an actual secret police organization making people disappear on a country's home soil. Again I am talking about a domestic force rather then a force that operates internationally. The CIA has done many immoral things, but those tend be on the world stage, rather then in the US itself.

Timo wrote: View Post
A democracy needs more then elections to be a democracy, it needs more just elections, it needs rights of citizens to be respected.
That's got nothing to do with democracies. A sovereign monarch may respect his subjects, and a democracy may torture and assassinate its subjects - indeed, both things are taking place in the 21st century just as much as they have done in the preceding ones.

Timo Saloniemi
Except there is a reason why most Democracies have bills or charters designed to enshrine people's rights. In general the Founding Fathers designed many of the rights to protect the freedom of the individual, otherwise you have a tyranny of a majority over a minority. If a majority of Americans declared to be bring back slavery, would that be Democratic, despite the fact it would curtail the rights of the minority? There is a difference between Democracy and mob rule.
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