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Old May 5 2013, 05:49 PM   #22
Lee Enfield
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Location: Germany
Re: George and Gracie

Timo wrote: View Post
That'd depend on what the whales said to the Probe. If it became obvious that the whales were transplants, and the Probe was happy with it, then the Probe might not really care about whether there were whales there on its putative next circuit. Extinction would be all right, as long as somebody explained it to the Probe.
As long as there is somebody who knows the code/language! It's unclear wether the Probe knows they're transplants (and accepts that) or if it doesn't care. But I don't think that's important. Important is, that the probe accepted just one singular code, and that the humpback whales seemed to be the only ones who could speak it.

Timo wrote: View Post
If the Probe just chatted with two very confused whales who had no idea of what was going on (the likeliest scenario) and perhaps were incapable of reasonable dialogue anyway (a possible scenario, even if Spock's intuition on the subject would then be proven wrong),...
On the contrary. Spock would have informed them! I always was under the impression, that the whales and Spock had an elaborated talk about the situation in the whale tank - through mind melting.

Timo wrote: View Post could easily figure out on its own that the two were transplants. And if the Probe realized that whales were gone save for these two, and wasn't happy with that state of affairs, it might have left a message to the parties responsible to do something about it.
I very doubt this. The Probe showd that it was rather incapable of reacting flexible to the situation. It didn't change the language it spoke. And it was either incapable of seeing that it hurted every other lifeform on earth (and elsewhere) with its action, or it didn't care.
Therefore I dont' think the probe is as diplomatic as you make it out - at least to Beings who don't speak its language.

Timo wrote: View Post
If there was actual communication going on there, rather than just the Probe verifying that mindless beasts were making the expected mindless noises, Universal Translator analysis should tell Federation science what was being said, and the above possibilities could be verified or discounted.
I agree that there was talking, not just verifying, going on. I disagree that the Federation was capable of translating what was being discussed at that time in the 23rd century between the whales and the Probe. And probably the Federation can't pull it off in the 24th century either. Remember: Spock said, that they could emulate the noises, but not the language.

So, ... Communication with the Probe isn't possible without the assistance of the whales. This all boils down to the language, which cannot be emulated by Federation. Some communication patterns obviously seem to be so complex that (at least) Starfleet makes use of the -unique- abilities of whales and dolphins to encode comm.problems.

Perhaps a never extinct dolphin species is capable of emulating the same code the humpback whales would in 'Voyage Home'.
But till I(the Federation/Starfleet) got my technical act together I would keep enough specimens alive to execute the stipulated examinations that are needed to replicate the code.
Since Starfleet uses dolphins for those kind of problems in the 24th century -even on starships- I speculate they haven't solved those problems till then.

On a side note: We don't know if this probe is the only one of its kind. From the perspective of the 23rd century there could've been an Armada out there. I would've prepared for that .... with at least keeping the whales alive and care for their reproduction, once a whale-lifetime of testing adverts to be not sufficient for the development of the technique/device/code.

Timo wrote: View Post
But then, your shrimp argument is invalid.
I'm curious - what about it is invalid? (Not that it was ever meant to be taken particularly seriously.)

If humpbacks stop contributing to the carnage of krill, the oceans will adapt to this new state of affairs and find a new equilibrium or steady state. If the humpbacks are reintroduced, the shrimp population will face a second ecological imbalance and thus "the oceans will be unhappy" about it. Reintroduction thus poses risks that might not be worth taking.

Timo Saloniemi
Yes, ^^ I didn't take it that much seriously, either. But the point was:
If we assume, there are whales/dolphins in the 24th century, that were never extinct (because we just know of the humpback whales that would be), how it is implied by your objection, then the KRILL STILL HAS TO FEAR THE TERROR OF SEA MAMMALS. *monstrous reverb through the ocean*
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