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Old April 26 2013, 04:28 AM   #224
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
This is the fourth (?) debate I’m participating on the „Class Issue“ and despite new dialogue evidence I presented in post # 177 on page 12 to prevent Greg Schnitzer from using up thread space with his screenplay excerpts he did it – yet again – and – worse – deliberately ignored the other Khan dialogue I quoted word by word which makes it abundantly clear that to fabricate the conclusion that Khan is ONLY reading the technical manual of the Enterprise is not only totally conjectural but wrong.
Robert Comsol:

I think you misunderstand. I'm not actually rallying for the notion that the Enterprise is a Constitution class star ship. I don't really care all that much, and I don't have a dog in that silly fictional hunt. To me, it's all a lot of fan wankery. My point in all this is your original question from the old "NCC = Not Constitution Class?" TrekBBS thread:

"So where does that erroneous idea of a Constitution Class come from?"

"What was there to conclude that Enterprise would be a Constitution Class starship?"

"Mr. Franz Joseph...introduced the idea of the Constition Class...with his Star Trek Blueprints and the Star Trek Technical Manual."

"The problem with Franz Joseph is that he simply copied Greg Jein's findings."

"Again, the entire...USS Constitution business was an invention of Greg Jein made to fit a pet theory of his which then was adopted by Franz Joseph Schnaubelt."

"Compare it to the quoted / illustrated text from the original Star Trek Concordance and you'll notice that the "Constitution Class" part has deliberately been added to make it appear official. (I consider this to be fraudulent behaviour.)"

In all this, by your own admission, you didn't know that "Constitution class star ship" was actually scripted in a Star Trek episode script. You thought the earliest reference to Constitution class was just an illegible screen graphic in "The Trouble with Tribbles." What I did, since you were unaware of it, was reproduce the relevent script information from the "Space Seed" script that ultimately gave rise to Matt Jefferies' "Constitution class star ship" diagram. I've done this a few times, but you still seem unclear. The "Space Seed" script with its "Constitution class star ship" commant and with the diagram to which it gave rise is the answer to your question. That's how Bjo Trimble in 1968, Greg Jein in April of 1973 and then Franz Joseph Schnaubelt in September of 1973 concluded that the Enterprise was a Constitution class star ship. It wasn't Bjo's "fradulence," or "Greg Jein's pet theory," or "Franz Joseph Schnaubelt's introduction," or "Franz Joseph Schnaubelt's copying or adoption of Greg Jein's theory,"

I don't actually know (nor really care) if Bjo Trimble and Greg Jein and Franz Joseph Schnaubelt reached the "right" decision about the fictional class of the fictional Enterprise. I don't know nor really care what "class" the Enterprise "really" is. "Space Seed" has Khan asking Kirk for information about "your ship" and then it indicates Khan is reading about a "Constitution class star ship," and then, yes, there is dialog that says Khan has been reading "manuals about starships." So does this mean "Constitution class" relates to the Enterprise or, does it instead, relate to some other class of star ship to which the Enterprise doesn't belong? You seem to think the evidence is compelling that any reference to a "Constitution class" refers to something other than the Enterprise. You think that if Scotty saw the diagram in some non-script-specified star ship context, then Khan must have also been looking at the same diagram without the benefit of a script-specifed context. But all that is actually now a different issue from your original "where did that idea originate?" question.

I think it's clear that they all got their "Enterprise is a Constitution class star ship" idea from the "Space Seed" script and from the resulting Jefferies diagram. Should they have given more weight to Khan's "manuals about starships" dialogue? Should they have reached the "more accurate" conclusion that "Constitution class" referred to something other than the Enterprise?

Frankly, I don't care about trying to divine the unknowable answer in a fictional universe. My point is that these people reached their conclusion, rightly or wrongly, based on actual Star Trek production information that you seem to not even have known about. They reached their decisions, rightly or wrongly, without the benefit of DVDs or VHS tapes or reel-to-reel videotape recorders or some drawing by Matt Jefferies that didn't even surface (and might not even have existed) until decades later.

Just because you didn't know about the "Constitution class star ship" production material from "Space Seed" doesn't mean that others more in-the-know than you must have simply fabricated the information. I find your notion to be insulting to those good people.
Greg Schnitzer
Co-Executive Producer
Star Trek Phase II

Last edited by GSchnitzer; April 26 2013 at 05:33 AM.
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