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Old April 23 2013, 11:43 PM   #62
Danger Ace
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Gary7 wrote: View Post
Diplomacy doesn't always mean making the logical choices.
Respectfully, untrue. "Logic" is merely consistant method by which one reasons and assesses (there are many branches or "schools of thought"), Furthermore, "diplomacy" is always done with purpose and in accordance to a set or code of principles (logic) so "Diplomacy" IS a process of "logic" in that it is a means to end (as Spock says in Star Trek VI).

I personally don't agree with the Federation banning cloaking device use, but I understand why they did it.
I don't. Diplomacy usually comes down to either a "quid pro quo" or as an uliteral act. Sadly, we cannot assume facts or circumstances not entered into evidence by the writers so we can only infer, at this point, a unilateral act.

The DS9 episode "Statistical Probabilities" is an example of how a logically derived at solution of unilateral action can be wrong.

Frankly, condoning it would mean many vessel coming from many different species equipped with it, making it easy for rogue elements to take advantage. Cloaked vessels are extremely difficult to track.
That doesn't hold up though as this only restricted The Federation. Klingons and Romulans still had it. The Cardassians were likely not bound by the treaty. The Gorn, Tholiens, Dominion, Borg, etc. were not bound by this treaty. So the Federation still had the same, if not greater, threat of rogue vessels employing cloaking devices to their constant disadvantage.

"In universe" I could see Starfleet justifying certain ships having a cloaking device installed...
Except the episode "Pegasus" is all about there being no such lawful exceptions or exemptions.

Anwar wrote: View Post

And? That doesn't mean they gave up NOTHING.
Can't assume facts not in evidence - we can only go by what the writers gave us ... not what they didn't.

And the Feds then did "The Enterprise Incident", capturing a cloaking device and a ranking Commander.
Your point being?

The Romulans already had Warp, just not warships as powerful as Klingon ones. The Klingons got the better end of THAT deal.
Untrue. In "Balance of Terror" it is stated the Romulan ship ran on impulse engines and that the cloaking device took a lot of energy. In the "Enterprise Incident" it is said the Romulan Star and Klingon empires had exchanged technology and ship designs and is the first instance of Romulans displaying warp speed capabilities. All-in-all, it was a pretty equal trade all things considered.

...No it didn't. They still worked on multiple ways of detecting cloaks (many of which work fine).
Such as? Cloaked ships were continued to be used because they gave a consistant level of advantage - why continue to use a device that has a stated high level of energy consumption)?

And why continue to write it in if it does not motivate or enhance the drama?

To be honest, even RDM (back in the old AOL forum) said it was a bit of bad patch of writing (my paraphrasing as I did not archive the "Ask RDM" folders but he was quite open and prone to honest self-evaluation <-- My opinion).

It wasn't unilateral.
Based on? Where and what was the quid pro quo?

Sci wrote: View Post
Whether you like it or not, the Federation simply is not as militaristic as modern Western societies.
Again, with all due respect ... can't really say that. TOS, TNG and DS9 mirrored, by design, contemporary real world dynamics. It has even been promoted as such - that is how it satisfied the most basic tenents of sound drama in terms of relatability and relevance.

I would also add the reasons and points I make previously in this post.
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