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Old April 23 2013, 05:07 AM   #437
Avro Arrow
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

ATimson wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
And I don't see why it's desirable. Why insist that Earth Starfleet do everything exactly the same way the UFP Starfleet does?
If the UFP Starfleet's ranks were distinct, that would be one thing. But they're (at least for the officer ranks) identical to US Navy ranks. I don't see any reason to assume there was a "zig-zag" in the lineage instead of just letting that straight line go through.
That depends on whether you accept Fleet Captain as a rank, or just a position. I like to think it is a distinct rank in TOS, just because it makes things a little different than our present-day naval rank structure.

Christopher wrote: View Post
You're forgetting that there was no lieutenant junior grade rank in TOS -- it went straight from ensign to lieutenant.
Although it was never called out by name, there does appear to be a Lieutenant J.G. rank in TOS. The only example we ever saw was Joe Tormolen, who wore a single broken line of braid in "The Naked Time".

Now, it may be that Lieutenant J.G. was removed from the structure by TMP, because IIRC they changed the ensign braid to a single broken line for that movie. But then it would have been back again by TWOK.

Christopher wrote: View Post
And commodore was evidently phased out sometime in the movie era. So there's already precedent for Starfleet changing its rank structures over time.
If we accept the Fletcher design notes, then IIRC, the commodore rank wouldn't have been phased out until sometime after the movie era, but before TNG. My memory could be a little shaky on this one, though.

Christopher wrote: View Post
I see no reason to add this particular idea to the fiction, especially when it clashes with the insignia design. It's a poor fit. And I don't see what benefit there is to it, what you gain by having it, other than conformity to what other Trek series have done, and where's the value in conformity?
I agree with this. Actually, one of the things I liked about the Cardassian rank structure on DS9 was that it seemed to be a very simplified structure (Glinn -> Gul -> Legate) that was different than the fleets of the other nations. But then the novels added Dalin, Dal, and Jagul (and the DS9 Technical Manual added Gil), so now I think the Cardassians have just about as many grades as everyone else. (Although I would have preferred if the novels had left Glinn immediately under Gul, since we saw Damar promoted from Glinn to Gul.)

EDIT follows:

ATimson wrote: View Post
I'm not convinced it was conscious. I don't recall (nor has anybody posted in the thread that I noticed) any proof from the show that there those ranks didn't exist.
I'm not sure about this, but did we see Kelby as a lieutenant before he took over as Chief Engineer after Tucker left? Once he was in the position, he was a commander, but I can't remember if we saw him at a different rank before that.

Not that it would be completely conclusive anyway, I guess, since you could always say he was bumped up two ranks.

Last edited by Avro Arrow; April 23 2013 at 05:18 AM. Reason: Added question about Kelby
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