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Old March 21 2013, 05:49 PM   #18
Timewalker
Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady
 
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Re: When exactly did Marla McGivers die?

Noname Given wrote: View Post
foxhot wrote: View Post
Obviously we did not see the death, but it could have occurred as early as the end of TOS's first year or as late as a day before the events of THE WRATH OF KHAN. My personal estimated guess would be between the second and third years of TOS. I thought the question could be asked, in case anyone has established the stardate time through official novels or even fan fictions.
If McGivers had bought it mere days before Chekov's visitation, I can see that making Khan extra-angry.
Honestly, from the dialog of ST:TWoK, I would assume she died BEFORE Ceti Alpha VI exploded - which was 6 months after they were marooned there. So, mid-second Season of TOS at the latest.
Khan's speech to Kirk says that he wants to leave Kirk "as you left me, as you left her, buried alive... buried alive..."

Whereupon Kirk shows us what incredible lung power he has, as his scream of "Khaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!" is heard all the way through solid rock...

This suggests to me that Marla died after Ceti Alpha V's ecosystem went to hell.

Timo wrote: View Post
Also, since Khan's followers in ST2:TWoK are a phenotypically uniform lot of young kids, it stands to reason that they are all children of the Alpha Male and his principal wife... And that Khan either killed all other children, or did not keep them alive when the planet went haywire, or just plain prevented anybody else from having kids.

The question then becomes, was the mother McGivers (meaning she would have to have lived through half a dozen pregnancies at least), or somebody more likely to provide Aryan offspring for the apparent Sikh prince?

Timo Saloniemi
Khan wanted to make himself an empire to rule. Pretty hard to do that without letting anybody have offspring.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
In the book, Khan and Marla had no children, although Khan raised Joaquim (the child of a fallen comrade) as though he was his own son.

Some genetic hand-waving was required to explain why all the second-generation superhumans were blond!
Why? Sure, adaptation and all, but in your own trilogy you did mention "supermen" from other regions of Earth. There had to be SOME who were blond(e).

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
foxhot wrote: View Post
I agree Khan likely had no actual children. If that were the case, he'd call them by their names, or pay a little less attention to Joachim.

If memory serves, wasn't To Reign in Hell the final installment of the excellent Khan Trilogy?
Indeed! Glad you liked them.


I spoke with Judson Scott (who played Joachim) at a convention once. He believed that Joachim was indeed Khan's son and that's how he played him.

Since this had never been "officially" established, I split the difference and made him Khan's foster son in the book.
That made more sense than the "JoaquiN from Space Seed inexplicably became a blond guy" although they otherwise had the same basic relationship.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
MarsWeeps wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
Also, since Khan's followers in ST2:TWoK are a phenotypically uniform lot of young kids, it stands to reason that they are all children of the Alpha Male and his principal wife...

The question then becomes, was the mother McGivers
Um...no. Even though Khan's followers looked young, none of them were born on the planet.

TERRELL: What do you want with us? Sir, I demand...
KHAN: You are in a position to demand nothing, sir. I, on the other hand, am in a position to grant ...nothing. What you see is all that remains of the ship's company and crew of the Botany Bay, marooned here fifteen years ago by Captain James T. Kirk.
TERRELL: Listen, you men and women, you have a...
KHAN: Captain! Captain! Save your strength. These people have sworn to live and die at my command two hundred years before you were born.
This is an odd case, where the screenplay and the casting don't seem to be on the same page. Yes, the dialogue implies that these are same Botany Bay superhumans we saw in "Space Seed," but they look completely different and clearly appear to be at least a generation younger than Khan.

The dialogue says one thing, but the visuals say something else. We have an aged Khan surrounded by a tribe of young, feral-looking Augments . . . .

(Indeed, as I mentioned before, at least one of the actors--Judson Scott--was under the impression that he was playing Khan's son while the movie was being filmed.)

In writing the book, I decided that what we actually saw on screen trumped a couple incongruous lines of dialogue and established that a second generation of superhumans was born during Khan's exile. The way I rationalized it, Khan was just indulging in a bit of poetic license when he was speaking to Chekov and Terrell, or perhaps, after fifteen years in hell, he was a trifle deranged at that point . . . .
But why didn't he address Khan as "Father" then? He always called Khan "My Lord" or used his name.

ssosmcin wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Well, this is more or less what I assumed when I saw the film, too. The question is, though, given the collapse of the ecosystem, what do they eat?
Their parents. That's why Khan is the only person over 21 left alive.
Judson Scott was clearly not a 21-year-old. He's a very handsome man, but not that young.
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