Thread: Section 31...
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Old February 27 2013, 03:16 AM   #182
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Re: Section 31...

First off:

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Sci... Sci... Sci...
Yes, we know you're talking to me.

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
But not every member participates! It's very common for Members of Congress to miss votes, or to refrain from voting. What of Founders who do the equivalent of voting "Present?"
So what if not every member participates? They're part of the membership, and have a responsibility and a duty to do so. Shirking it doesn't get them off the hook. If they're against an action, they have a duty to vote against it, not abstain from voting at all. The Founders, if any, who voted against conquering the Alpha Quadrant should've done more.
I don't disagree at all. But that doesn't mean that killing them is legitimate.

We're discussing a fictional alien society and its decision to go to war with what amounts to the entire galaxy. Their goal was to control all the intelligent species in the galaxy, either by having them under their thumb or by wiping them out. Their only reason to do this was to protect themselves from persecution. So their fear of being bullied basically drove them to take over or wipe out every other intelligent species in the galaxy. But, when it comes down to it, the Federation is worse, because some rogue agents planted a virus among them.
I'm not sure where your last statement is coming from; I do not at all think the Federation is worse than the Dominion, nor do I think the Federation to have been the aggressor in the Federation-Dominion War. I have time and again in this thread been very specific in my condemnation of Section 31, not the Federation.

A virus, by the way, that apparently killed no one
We do not have any information about whether or not the Section 31 virus killed anyone in the link.

You've argued time and again that I'm unreasonably applying humanoid social paradigms to the Founders, but I would argue you are doing the same. The need to preserve a species overrides the assumption that a military leader is a legitimate target when that "military leader" consists of an entire species.
Well, I'm sorry, but they are all leaders of the Dominion. The entire species is treated as gods by their subjects, something they forced their subjects to do at a genetic level. So, hell yes, they're not just military leaders, they're more than military leaders - they're gods!
Doesn't matter. The inherent right of any species to survive outweighs the idea that they're all legitimate military targets. The need to wage war never justifies genocide.

I am tired of the implication on your part that they're innocent victims of the Federation's warmongering and genocidal tendencies.
I have at no point made this implication, and I'm not sure where you got the idea that I did.

But it also doesn't matter; we're judging Section 31, not debating whether Section 31's actions are worse than the Founder's actions. You don't get to justify murder by saying, "Yeah, but I killed so many fewer people than Ted Bundy!"

Do you have any other evidence that there were "children" present in the Great Link?
Do you have any evidence that there weren't?

Recreational shapeshifting? Writing novels? Reading? Painting? They're Founders -- they can do anything they want.
Recreational shapeshifting, I can buy. But novels? They don't have books. They don't read, or paint.
Says who?

They'd have to be in humanoid form to do those things,
Not necessarily. Who knows what frequencies of the electromagnetic spectrum they can sense? The "sea floor" of their homeworld, for instance, may be positively full of impressions in any number of different EM spectrums that could be their equivalent of writing or paintings or other works of art. The entire sea floor may be inscribed with a vast poem, for all we know.

And for that matter, alterations of their planet's surface may itself be an artistic project. If we gain so much pleasure from viewing things like the Grand Canyon, how much more aesthetic pleasure might a Changeling capable of interacting with such geographical features on a much more intimate level feel?

The Founders can take humanoid form, but they are radically non-humanoid, and to apply all the rules of humanoid society to their alien society is ridiculous.
I agree. Which is why any conclusions I've drawn about Founder society are taken from implications in the canon. And why I've rejected the idea of applying the "military leaders=legitimate targets" concept to them.
So, it was wrong of the Breen to attack Starfleet Headquarters in San Francisco?
It would be wrong if Starfleet Headquarters housed the entirety of a sentient species population.

The attack in general, obviously. The Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar's plan in "The Die is Cast" and Garak's genocidal plot in "Broken link" are just as objectionable.
And if the scale were smaller - would it have been ok if the virus was somehow made to target only Founders who voted "yes" on conquering the entire Alpha Quadrant? Would it be OK to kill them?
That's an interesting question; I don't know.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
You know before anyone tries to play the it was for the freedom of the Alpha Quadrant card again, I would like to point out that the Klingon Empire was in a position to fight a destructive war against the Federation that could have ended in a Federation defeat and enslavement of its people and the Federation didn't try to commit genocide against the Klingons.
Thank you.

But I do feel the need to point out that, no, the Federation is not responsible for the actions of Section 31.

Pavonis wrote: View Post
"The Federation" didn't engage in genocide at all. Some rogue elements of the Federation society attempted it, (hell, just one guy did if you take my point of view) and still it's not obvious that any one died from the virus.

Trying to blow up the Bajoran sun is OK, though. Because the Federation was the aggressor, right? The Founders and the Dominion are poor victims of the terrible Federation's all-mighty conquering armies of Section 31 ninjas, and were justified in their attempt to destroy an entire race, but not the Feds. Nope. Humans are just evil.

No one has claimed this.
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
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