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Old February 23 2013, 06:38 AM   #346
UFO
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Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

yousirname wrote: View Post
... So even if in fact Nero has no weapons, Kirk doesn't know that he has no weapons.
Ignoring sensors, observed damage, and such like, the fact that Nero is talking rather than shooting might be clue. If he is so offended by Kirk I am not even sure there was a point in talking anyway.

... The movies are different from real life, however, and the situation is one where we have much more information and much greater certainty than can usually be obtained IRL. We know the following about Nero:
And I donít agree we (nor Kirk) know the things you went on to assume we do. Eg. We donít know Krik can save Nero. Kirk barely saved himself! Not that knowing them would justify anything in my view. The assumption it does is your unsupported opinion.

As I said, I already answered the time question. Yes, we are still 'robbing them of their life'. From my point of view, all the reasons that it is typically wrong to do that are absent here.
How strange. I would not have said that any of the reasons you give are why it is typically wrong to do that. It is mostly wrong because we are robbing Nero or anyone in his position of their remaining life and that hasn't been removed.

A) Of course it matters if Nero would be happy to be rescued by Romulans. You are trying to claim he was indifferent to his death. Accepting Romulan help would show he isn't.
A) No, it doesn't matter. His rescue by Romulans is a counterfactual - something that manifestly is not the case. Nero would also be happy not to be in a black hole - but he is. Given that fact, his only options are to die or to be rescued by Kirk and he knows this to be true.
In short, if Nero would be happy not to be in a blackhole, or to be rescued from such a predicament, then he his clearly not "indifferent to his death" (one of your conditions for it being OK to shoot him). This is what the hypothetical tells us. This was its purpose, not to give Nero options he doesn't have. The most you can say is, given his actual situation, he is resigned to his fate. But that is a very different thing.

Your mistake, it seems to me, is in assuming that someone making a choice that leads to their death implies that such a person is indifferent to their death. Obviously there are many situations where that isnít the case such as when someone puts their life at risk to protect their children. In no way are they indifferent to death. Neither is Nero as far as we can tell.

Of course it is ironic to spend so much effort on such an obvious point, only to have it be irrelevant to the question of whether it is right to kill someone if they did have that state of mind in Nero's position. Quite frankly it wouldn't change anything. Killing them would still be wrong. As far as I can see, you can't base general moral principles on such subjective and arbitrary opinions. Neither yours nor the ones you assign to Kirk.

BTW counterfactuals are theoretical exercises. It doesn't matter if the Romulans are really there. All that matters is what Nero would do if they were.
No, that has no bearing whatsoever on anything, in the slightest degree, and here is why: What if there's a crazed Vulcan on board the Enterprise who can and will blow the Enterprise up if Kirk doesn't pull the trigger? Will you allow that it doesn't matter if the crazed Vulcan is actually there? Of course not.
You haven't told me what you are trying to prove with your situation so I can't judge whether it matters or not. I am saying that in a theoretical situation X, Nero's likely reaction would show us Y. In this case his state of mind. All you have given me is a situation without saying what it is supposed to tell or prove to us. It could matter in a lot of ways. Who knows? What's crucial is that the thing being demonstrated is not dependent on the reality of the counterfactual. The counterfactual is just a tool.

Counterfactuals are indeed theoretical exercises, but they operate by the assumption of their being the case - and I agree that if it were possible for Romulans to rescue Nero and if he were prepared to accept that then Kirk would be wrong to pull the trigger.
Great, then if we assume there was a Romulan rescue ship (and you agree Nero would likely accept help from it), that would show us that he isn't indifferent to his death (not that it matters), just resigned and therefore, according to your own "rules", Kirk shouldn't shoot. Hallelujah, I think we have got there.
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